[sasquatch2]

commanderkai

[quote]True, but I don't think that would be happening. It'd be far fetched if any Chinese government will punish any no name protester just because they were in a photo, that's is unless there are a few Chinese agents amongst the Chinese communities in Canada, threatening them to show support or we'll beat the crap out of your family back home.{/quote]
First most Chinese students who are allowed to come here ARE considered "politically reliable" by the PRC and act as agents to intimidate expatriates into jumping when they cry frog. That is reality.
It is difficult to appreciate this reality, from the prospective of a member of a free society.

Basically. this means if the "ministry of culture" wants a "spontaneous demonstration" on Parliament hill they make a few e-mails and voila!

[commanderkai]

sasquatch2 sasquatch2:

commanderkai

$1:

True, but I don't think that would be happening. It'd be far fetched if any Chinese government will punish any no name protester just because they were in a photo, that's is unless there are a few Chinese agents amongst the Chinese communities in Canada, threatening them to show support or we'll beat the crap out of your family back home.

First most Chinese students who are allowed to come here ARE considered "politically reliable" by the PRC and act as agents to intimidate expatriates into jumping when they cry frog. That is reality.
It is difficult to appreciate this reality, from the prospective of a member of a free society.

Basically. this means if the "ministry of culture" wants a "spontaneous demonstration" on Parliament hill they make a few e-mails and voila!

I do agree there are agents in the Chinese communities, but I'd be surprised that most of those are actually people from the Chinese community or that a majority of the Chinese community are a part of those protest. I'd put a bet that those 6000 are either Chinese agents or are being forced by those Chinese agents to attend.

[bootlegga]

ridenrain ridenrain:

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:

From the pictures, they all look Chinese. Though what the hell is going on here?

The Chinese that leave still have a great number of family who are held hostage back home, and the Chinese embassys do keep track of their people. A little money back home goes a long way.

Look back to when the Chinese Grand-pooba came to Vancouver and the pro China numbers outnumbered the anti-China folks. It wasn't because China's leaders are such nice folks.

Holy propaganda Batman! And here I thought the PRC had a monopoly on it.

That's got to be one of the dumbest things I've heard from you in a long time.

Total ignorance is what that comment is.

I know several Chinese nationals with family members in China. Not one of those relatives wants to 'escape to Canada' like you seem to assume. China these days is far different from Communist side of the Iron Curtain during the Cold War. People own property, make fortunes and even have some freedoms. While it is not Canada, for them it is home and they love it all the same, flaws and all.

But then again, Canada is perfect isn't it RR?

Just so you know, Canada likes to keep track of its citizens abroad too, just like most countries do.

[ridenrain]

Is that why reporters in China have such trouble getting real "man on the street" interviews? It wouldn't be out of fear, would it? maybe taht's why such organizations like "reporters without borders" have China on the top of their list?
But then you say: "But then again, Canada is perfect isn't it RR? "
They must be just like us , eh?

What a load of shit!
You're free to move at any time and take you're human rights commissions with you.

Before you go, did out a copy of Sidewinder so you have something to read on the way:
http://www.jrnyquist.com/sidewinder.htm

[mixedfarmer]

If they like china so much , why are they not living in china? If a group demonstrated like this in China they would probably be put in jail.

[Congio]

Mr_Canada Mr_Canada:

RUEZ RUEZ:

Mr_Canada Mr_Canada:

...Seriously?!

Why does that surprise you? We live in Canada, a country that prides itself on it's multiculturalism.

I suppose.

But I didn't suspect ANY support for China from ANYWHERE.

I'm so naive.

Your not alone dude.




I know stories about Polish folks from the cold war era that were still communist despite living in free Canada. And those people for ex. hated Lech Wałesa and the Solidarity movement.
Sp all I have to say on this protest is: sick.

Do they understand? I think no.

bootlegga bootlegga:

China these days is far different from Communist side of the Iron Curtain during the Cold War.

You really think so?

Poland needed 20 year to be half the way Canada is in economic values.
Russia needed 20 years to be half the way Canada is in Human rights and freedoms and one quarter of what Canada is in economic values.
Where do you think China is with more that one billion inhabitants?
Poland - 40 million, Russia - 150 million.

China has changed, but not so much. Changes need time. Especially there.

[Rationalist]

Haha, I was going to the library at my university and I saw a bus full of merry Chinese folk disembarking, holding miniature PRC flags. They were singing the Chinese national anthem. I went up to one and said 毛主席万岁！They seemed shocked that some white guy was speaking mandarin to them, however after a few seconds they laughed nervously and said in a heavy accent that they are also proud to be Canadian as well.

These people are pretty misguided, as they would not be able to hold such a protest in their own country. They have some points though, they seemed mostly concerned about the tarnishing of China's reputation in the media lately. I agree, there are plenty of countries that are worse than China but don't get any media coverage.

Still, it would be ironic to break up that demonstration with tear gas and batons.

Also, as a person with Polish background, I have to say Poland has a great human rights record for a post-communist country (but the vacuum was filled by insane radio maryja listeners), and you're right, these things don't happen overnight. China will take time, and they are more concerned about stability than anything else. This is a country that has gone through more civil wars and foreign invasions than most - only in the past 50 or so years have they had peace and constant economic growth, albeit under a oppressive government.

[Congio]

Rationalist Rationalist:

These people are pretty misguided, as they would not be able to hold such a protest in their own country. They have some points though, they seemed mostly concerned about the tarnishing of China's reputation in the media lately. I agree, there are plenty of countries that are worse than China but don't get any media coverage.

It's hard to get people's attention to anything. Look at all the Cancer/aids campaigns for example.
If there is a hope of forcing some positive change in China, now is the moment. IMO those people should be happy that we, citizens of the free world, are trying to change china to the better. Everyone benefits from criticism, just not everyone likes to critiqued.

Rationalist Rationalist:

Still, it would be ironic to break up that demonstration with tear gas and batons.

Rationalist Rationalist:

Also, as a person with Polish background, I have to say Poland has a great human rights record for a post-communist country (but the vacuum was filled by insane radio maryja listeners), and you're right, these things don't happen overnight. China will take time, and they are more concerned about stability than anything else. This is a country that has gone through more civil wars and foreign invasions than most - only in the past 50 or so years have they had peace and constant economic growth, albeit under a oppressive government.

Chinas problem is that it is to big. If democracy stroke there the country would fall apart: independent Canton, Shanghai, Manchuria, Tibet etc. Like Yugoslavia or the Soviet Union.
And lets be honest here: the ones that are profiting the most from the economic growth are government officials and their family an' friends.

[Rationalist]

True, the Gini coefficient of China has risen drastically, but I would contend that the people getting rich aren't necessarily politically connected, rather ones with business connections. A lot of the wealth has been concentrated in the wealthy coastal regions even more so than before, but at the very least the people in the inner provinces aren't poor dirt farmers like in the 60s.

Of course the human rights leave a lot to be desired, things like banning Tibetan flags are just ridiculous. However it's impossible to ignore the vast rise in living standards for a large chunk of the Chinese population, and this is probably why I think that they get support, however misguided it may be.

[Congio]

Rationalist Rationalist:

Of course the human rights leave a lot to be desired, things like banning Tibetan flags are just ridiculous. However it's impossible to ignore the vast rise in living standards for a large chunk of the Chinese population, and this is probably why I think that they get support, however misguided it may be.

Exactly.

If your polish you probably know that a similar thing was in Poland (and in Russia) during communist times:
There were poor and uneducated farmers. Before WWII they lived in great poverty. After the war their standards of life grew a bit. For ex. they saw a tractor first time in their lives. So they started to believe in the greatness of communism because it brought tractors.

So what that in western Europe people had better tractors. So what that the west had much more tractors per person. So what that the west had tractors before Poland did etc. Those farmers didn't know that. All they did was: Communism brought a tractor!

The same thing is whit China. The Chinese Government loosened a bit its reign of terror, and let in some freedom, but the truth is that China and all it's regions, and the Chinese people would do much better without that government. Like Poland would do with it's communists in the XX century.

EDIT: My 200 post!

[ridenrain]

Remember that the Communist party of China has been in power almost as long as the Liberal party of Canada and we're still trying to remove the leftovers of that failed regime.

[bootlegga]

ridenrain ridenrain:

Is that why reporters in China have such trouble getting real "man on the street" interviews? It wouldn't be out of fear, would it? maybe taht's why such organizations like "reporters without borders" have China on the top of their list?
But then you say: "But then again, Canada is perfect isn't it RR? "
They must be just like us , eh?

What a load of shit!
You're free to move at any time and take you're human rights commissions with you.

Before you go, did out a copy of Sidewinder so you have something to read on the way:
http://www.jrnyquist.com/sidewinder.htm

First off, why would I move? Simply because I support a Chinese citizen's right to be proud of his country, warts and all. If that's the case, then you better move to the North Pole, as all of us patriotic Canucks must just sicken you everyday.

I never said China was perfect, just that Chinese people have the right to support their nation, just as Americans have the right to go USA USA and Canadians have the right to be proud of our country. Yet, because these people have the nerve to support something you don't like, they must be brainwashed right?

In your world, apparently the only people who can stand behind their nation are those from democratic ones? Well now, that's not very free of you is it? But you wouldn't know anything of hypocrisy would you?

[bootlegga]

Congio Congio:

bootlegga bootlegga:

China these days is far different from Communist side of the Iron Curtain during the Cold War.

You really think so?

Poland needed 20 year to be half the way Canada is in economic values.
Russia needed 20 years to be half the way Canada is in Human rights and freedoms and one quarter of what Canada is in economic values.
Where do you think China is with more that one billion inhabitants?
Poland - 40 million, Russia - 150 million.

China has changed, but not so much. Changes need time. Especially there.

Actually, I do think a lot has changed in the past 20 years.

Their economy is growing much faster than it was and is ranked #2 by the most economists, ahead of Japan, Germany and the UK. In the 80s, they lagged behind Canada, despite having more than 30 times our population. Many more people have good jobs, are getting university education, and the amount of poor has dropped by at least 10%. Of course in China, 10% is only 100 million or so, but what can you do. The standard of living is also climbing rapidly. They still have roughly 300-500 million poor/migrants, but seeing as it was it over 600 million in the 80s, I'd say that's progress.

They haven't run over anyone with tanks since Tiananmen Square in 1989. Hong Kong and Macao were both absorbed peacefully.

Has it changed entirely? No.

They still need to dial down the rhetoric, but all in all, it's going pretty good.

Let's remember, the West supported nasty dictatorships in Taiwan and South Korea. With economic growth and prosperity, those nations moved from dictatorship to democracy. Will it happen in China? I don't know, but they are making progress towards that goal in the future.

[ridenrain]

There's nothing wrong with Chinese showing pride for their country but I'd think most here would agree that their leaders are more of a corrupt gang than a government.

Yes, a great many things have changed but I'd say it's for the benefit of the ruling class and their cronies than the average citizen. In fact, I was just reading about some small businessman who got thrown in jail after h he made a stink about his property being taken, without compensation, for olympic construction.
Their government has made no real movement on human rights since Nixon went over so just because tanks are not crushing people this week does not mean that their on the right path. They just might have run out of protesters.

[Congio]

I am proud to be Canadian. And I am ready to prove it at any moment. But if some motherf%$#$^ commies would take over Canada I would never support them.

There is a difference between being proud of your country and supporting your government.

If Canada would have an dictatorship I would fight it till death, so my fellow citizens would be free. I would support anti Canadian government protests in for ex. China.

=================================================

China has changed, no doubt. So did Poland or the Soviet Union after WWII. But is the change implimented the best way possible?
Some parts of China would do much better alone, but the 'Chinese Empire' wont let them secede. I see Imperialism in China.