[ridenrain]

Wullu Wullu:

WRT to Germany recasting the Baron, do any of you think the fact that ol Reichs Minister Herman himself was a member of von Richtofen's Flying Circus might have tainted him in a post WWII Germany?

Lol. I'd imagine that old fatty might be more envious and bitter than thankfull. It's natural to demonize the enemy during time of war but the Germans were never known for canibalism, unlike the Japanese.

[SigPig]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Even the enemy can be heroic and display acts of valour. That's something that seemed to differentiate WW 1 from WW 2, our perception of the enemy. In WW 2 the Germans fought for an evil cause, no one can deny.

I think that in WW2 the average German soldier was still the same as it was in WW1, just fighting for their country not the evil cause that waws Nazism. I can tell you that with a degree of certainty because, my grandfather was one of them. And its these soldiers that were viewed with respect by the allies, just like allied soldiers were respected by the Germans.

IMO, if you remove the few that were involved in the atrocites of WW2, one cannot deny the amazing quality of soldier that Germany produced and still produces to this day.

[Wullu]

ridenrain ridenrain:

Wullu Wullu:

WRT to Germany recasting the Baron, do any of you think the fact that ol Reichs Minister Herman himself was a member of von Richtofen's Flying Circus might have tainted him in a post WWII Germany?

Lol. I'd imagine that old fatty might be more envious and bitter than thankfull. It's natural to demonize the enemy during time of war but the Germans were never known for canibalism, unlike the Japanese.

Not so sure about that. Herman was not above using his fighter pilot status and being a member of the Flying Circus. I have always had the impression that one of the reasons that he rose so high in the nazi party was the fact that he was a certifiable hero in the first war. Of course, by the end of the second war he was just certifiable.

[ShepherdsDog]

SigPig SigPig:

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Even the enemy can be heroic and display acts of valour. That's something that seemed to differentiate WW 1 from WW 2, our perception of the enemy. In WW 2 the Germans fought for an evil cause, no one can deny.

I think that in WW2 the average German soldier was still the same as it was in WW1, just fighting for their country not the evil cause that waws Nazism. I can tell you that with a degree of certainty because, my grandfather was one of them. And its these soldiers that were viewed with respect by the allies, just like allied soldiers were respected by the Germans.

IMO, if you remove the few that were involved in the atrocites of WW2, one cannot deny the amazing quality of soldier that Germany produced and still produces to this day.

Wehrmacht soldiers were viewed as soldiers, the Waffen SS were seen as something else entirely.

$1:

In the autumn of 1934, there was great agitation as a result of the machinations of the SS. The SS maintained the Army was preparing a putsch, and reports came in from all the military districts that the SS was planning a big coup. Then, the Führer decided to order the leading figures in the Party and many senior officers to a meeting in the Opera House. The Führer made a speech which was a clear statement of loyalty to the Army and its leader [i.e. Fritsch]. After the Führer's speech, the SS agitation decreased somewhat. But from the summer of 1935 it increased again. The behavior of the SS Verfügungstruppen at the military training establishment at Altengrabow, where for no reason at all they indulged in vicious abuse of the Army and myself, threw a significant light on the situation. While during the subsequent phase, we managed to establish a good, in many cases intimate relationship with all Party agencies, this was not true of the SS. As far as our side was concerned, this may have derived from the fact that there was hardly a single senior officer who did not feel that the SS were spying on him. It is continually coming to light that, contrary to express instructions from the Führer's Deputy, SS people serving in the Army have received orders to provide reports on their superiors. Unfortunately, these matters come to my attention in such a form that I cannot pursue them. Finally, the SS Verfügungstruppe, which is continually being expanded, must create conflict with the Army through its very existence. It is the living proof of mistrust towards the Army and its leadership. Although the Army has a certain right to supervise the training of the SS Verfügungstruppe, this SS troop is developing completely separately and, as I see it, in conscious opposition to the Army. All units are unanimous in reporting that the relationship of the SS Verfügungstruppe to the Army is very cold if not hostile. One cannot avoid the impression that the negative attitude towards the Army in the SS Verfügungstruppe is positively encouraged. This attitude finds external expression in the fact that only very rarely does an SS man salute an officer.

Werner von Fritsch, former German Army Commander-in-Chief, on the hostility that existed between the Wehrmacht and the SS

[ridenrain]

Wullu Wullu:

ridenrain ridenrain:

Wullu Wullu:

WRT to Germany recasting the Baron, do any of you think the fact that ol Reichs Minister Herman himself was a member of von Richtofen's Flying Circus might have tainted him in a post WWII Germany?

Lol. I'd imagine that old fatty might be more envious and bitter than thankfull. It's natural to demonize the enemy during time of war but the Germans were never known for canibalism, unlike the Japanese.

Not so sure about that. Herman was not above using his fighter pilot status and being a member of the Flying Circus. I have always had the impression that one of the reasons that he rose so high in the nazi party was the fact that he was a certifiable hero in the first war. Of course, by the end of the second war he was just certifiable.

I'm just thinking that, although he had a respectable enough career for the average pilot, he was now more than that, and less than second best. It never looks good to have a second best in command.

[BartSimpson]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Even the enemy can be heroic and display acts of valour. That's something that seemed to differentiate WW 1 from WW 2, our perception of the enemy. In WW 2 the Germans fought for an evil cause, no one can deny.

Not entirely. While the leadership was definitely evil, the common German soldier was motivated not to fight for "Fuherer, Volk, und Vaterland" but most were motivated by a number of other factors such as...

A. Revenge for French & British lies in the Armistice that ended WW1. The Armistice was conditioned on a fair and equitable peace and then when the German delegation arrived at Versailles they were instructed to sign the abusive treaty under threat.

B. Revenge for the French invasion of Germany of April 6, 1920

C. Revenge for the French, British, & Belgian invasion of Germany of March 8, 1921.

D. Revenge for the increase in reparations from the dictated 1BN British Pounds at the signing of Versailles to 6.6BN Pounds as of April 27, 1921. Once the Germans were disarmed they were robbed.

E. Revenge for French atrocities during the occupations of the Ruhr (I've never heard of any accusations against the Belgians or Brits).

F. Revenge for French intrigues to prevent Germany from becoming a world power - this would include lingering resentment to include the invasion of Germany by Napoleon and for French aggression against the newly united Germany in the Franco-Prussian War.

G. Revenge for the French & Belgian invasion of Germany on January 11, 1923.

In sum, the Nazis could not have come to power without so much help from the French.

[sasquatch2]

ridenrain

$1:

I'm just thinking that, although he had a respectable enough career for the average pilot, he was now more than that, and less than second best. It never looks good to have a second best in command.

Actually as a leader even in WW1 Goering was a dunce. von Richtofen's policy was to intercept the 2 seat reconasance and bombers, and largely avoid battle with the more dangerous single seat fighters. This provided a strategic benefit and reduced losses. Following von Richtofen's death, Goering considered the "flying circus" some kind of jousting society and concentrated on dog-fights with the allied fighters and in the process fought the unit into oblivion/extermination. In short he was a fool.

[twister]

First off All things related to both wars are still taught in Germany. It is good to see the Germans again embracing the figure of the Red Baron again as a national hero... There are many other far more sinister people they could admire from thier rich history.

Baron Von Richtoffen was a gentleman and one of the greatest fighting / flying officers of all time.

Goring did not "Lead" the first world war German airforce to defeat. On7th July 1918, after the death of Wilhelm Reinhard, the successor of The Red Baron, he was made commander of Jagdgeschwader Freiherr von Richthofen, Jagdgeschwader 1. By the time Goring assumed Command Gerrmany had many losses amongst thier top piolts/

Was Goring arrogant, yes of course he was by all accounts and his promotion was not well recieved by the Pilots under his command.

The planes Germany had in thier arsenal during world war 1 were technically superior to anything the American, French or British had even to the end of the war.

Goring as many of the German pilots were or became cocaine addicts as well as being heavy drinkers. (befor and after the death of Richthofen.) Cocaine use was very prevalent in 1917 not only restricted to German pilots many British Pilots as well. (not just a new world drug)

The Connection to Canada:

It has now been shown that Australian Soldiers on the ground actually killed The Red Baron.. and not Canadian Pilot Roy Brown who is officially credited with shooting down the Red Baron. (Not Snoopy)


However, though Out of World war 2...their next ace would come from the Land.

http://www.alanhamby.com/aces.shtml

The one German who I could see them making a national hero next would be Hauptsturmführer Michael Wittmann, "The Black Baron" Tank Commander. Destroyed 138 tanks and 141 artillery pieces, along with an unknown number of other armoured vehicles.

or Kurt Knispel - highest scoring tank ace of World War II with a total of 168 confirmed tank kills with the actual number of tanks destroyed, although unconfirmed, being as high as 195.



The Connection to Canada for Wittmann:



In August 8th, 1944, Michael Wittmann was killed during a skirmish with Canadian Sherman Firefly tanks. He and his crew were buried in an unmarked grave but was transfered to the La Gambe cemetary in Normandy in 1983.


A Squadron of the Sherbrooke Fusilier Regiment, 2nd Canadian Armoured Brigade commanded by Major Sidney Radley-Walters was positioned in the chateau grounds at Gaumesnil. The regiment at this time was made up of several Sherman III and 2 Sherman VC, whose tankers had created themselves firing holes in the property's wall. From this position, based off verbal testimony of the Canadian tankers, they engaged several tanks and self propelled guns driving up the main road and across the open ground towards Hill 112 including several Tiger tanks.

The Canadian tanks were only around 500 meters away from Wittmann's tank. Although there is no official Canadian records to back this position up due the Regimental Headquarters halftrack being destroyed by a stray USAAF bomb. (damn Americans again with stray ordinance)

With the Tigers caught in a crossfire between the Northamptonshire Yeomanry and the Sherbrooke Fusiliers it is understandable that both regiments claimed to have destroyed his tank. With no other evidence available it does appear that the Canadian tankers were in fact Wittmann’s killers.

In the appendix of “No Holding Back”, devoted to Wittmann’s demise, there is topographical map of the engagement, diagrams of the tank and the location of the shell strike.

[sasquatch2]

twister

$1:

......the successor of The Red Baron, he was made commander of Jagdgeschwader Freiherr Von Richthofen, Jagdgeschwader 1.

I disagree. Goering foolish dogfighting policy destroy the flying circus not the German air force. The British "Bristol Fighter" had achieved ascendancy over the German aircraft such as the Albatross. Attrition was a factor in the matter.
The success of the British in mounting the 17 pounder in the Sherman was a signal factor in the overall success of the western allies. Although the Americans officially refused the "firefly" (the name of the rearmed tank), various US units received fire-flies despite the supply problems. It's 17 pounder was the most potent tank killer in WW2. It exceeded the 88mm and the Russian 120mm in penetration with it's novel APDS ammo. It was the "can-opener supreme.

The 17 pounder was the ultimate until the 20pounder arrived but events have overtaken these.