[BartSimpson]

lily lily:

Bart Bart:

- right now my friends on YIM from the five side hut are telling me there's no confirmation of this.

The Pentagon discusses national security with a civilian on messenger?

Jealous?

[BartSimpson]

sasquatch2 sasquatch2:

lily

$1:

Bart wrote:

$1:

- right now my friends on YIM from the five side hut are telling me there's no confirmation of this.

The Pentagon discusses national security with a civilian on messenger?

It's called "The Old Boy Network"...........an important resource for any military.

Accurate and correct.

[-Mario-]

Arctic_Menace Arctic_Menace:

This is ahrdly new. Haven't Canadian subs done this in the past?

Yes... But Canadian subs were part of the exercice. China is an unannounced guest.

What I don't understand... is why would China choose to pop up in the middle of the exercise. It would be a lot more advantageous to them to remain in stealth mode.

[BartSimpson]

lily lily:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

lily lily:

Bart Bart:

- right now my friends on YIM from the five side hut are telling me there's no confirmation of this.

The Pentagon discusses national security with a civilian on messenger?

Jealous?

No.

I'm calling bullshit, actually.


Oh no! A Chinese sub surfaced in the middle of an exercise... and damn, BartSimpson is "idle".

Lily, in the course of 25 years you think that I made no friends whatsoever who are still in the service?

[Scape]

-Mario- -Mario-:

What I don't understand... is why would China choose to pop up in the middle of the exercise. It would be a lot more advantageous to them to remain in stealth mode.

Strictly speaking there are two objectives being pursued here one is tactical and the other political. The political embarrassment is worth more for now then tactical success. China will be now and for the foreseeable future be flush with cash and investing heavily into cutting edge military applications. If they can do now what was not expected for another 10-20 years you can imagine how much they can do then when the US will be in full blown decline because they owe trillions to China and can't keep pace.

[sasquatch2]

Well before you get too wet about your heroes military modernization.

The PRC has produced a relatively modern tank T2000 which they have licenced production to pakistan and are offering for export. Due to serious mobility problems, the PLA is only slowly re-equiping with this. They have developed an improved version the T99 or T98 which is a vast improvement but due to it's cost of $1.8 million a unit, the PLA has only acquired 200. What is known is that it has a potent gun but protection is not up to the MI Abrams, Challenger, Leo II.

It has developed a new fighter, with the intent of being a counter to the F16, a copy of which they acquired from Pakistan. It is rumoured to be still in prototype stage due to stability problems.
Due to simple fact that the F16 is now old technology, this would perhaps but not necessarilly give a the PLAAF a unproven advantage against Tawain's AF. They would however be gun-fodder for the Raptor.

They purchased Russia's incomplete second air-craft carrier which was never completed and difficult and possibly impossible to make operational due to deterioration. They got it for scrap price which is what it really is.

Although the PRC has a more robust economy than the former USSR, it is obvious that modern weapons systems are not only not really available---there is signifigant doubt as to whether the PRC can pay for them.

[dgthe3]

Agreed
F-16 and Leopard II tanks aren't exactly state of the art and are over 30 years old. They are both in the process of getting replaced. The F-16 wasn't even a top of the line fighter in the day, it was supposed to be a cheap export fighter. The Leo II is a good design and tanks last a bit longer in the field than fighters but it is getting to be almost 45 years old, and the Chinese can't match it for protection? Thats pretty bad. They are trying to modernize their military to the equipment levels of the first gulf war. That was over 15 years ago, by the time they complete things all their new technology will be obsolete. The Russians could at least steal things and produce them in about 5 years. Sometimes they were even ahead. For all of China's recent development, they have made no advancement in engineering, which is what a modern power needs. Look at these examples:

going to space in a modified Russian rocket
building the Three gorges Damm designed by a German company
cloning american F-16's that were sold to Pakistan
ripping off japanesse cars and showing them in international autoshows
worlds first mag-lev train: designed by germans, made in china
improving on russian tanks from the cold war
buying vessels from the russian navy
and it just goes on


The Chinesse are not capable of actually designing something on the cutting edge.

[ShepherdsDog]

$1:

Untill people start bleeding, this is just a game. Games take place on all sorts of levels.

Then it officially becomes a sport.

[dog77_1999]

They realize that the Soviets loved to do this all of the time to the US Navy. They stopped when every single one of their fleets got pinged by the US. A very critical embarrassment.

The thing about the US is that you never know what it is truely capable of. Part of not knowing is part of the advantage. I really think China would be smart to hide everything that they are doing.

And there is only so much China can copy. The real challenge is to figure out how to make some of the modern materials that Western militaries use. Heck, as of right now, they'll settle for figuring out how to make carbon fiber.

[Scape]

dgthe3 dgthe3:

Look at these examples:

going to space in a modified Russian rocket
building the Three gorges Damm designed by a German company
cloning american F-16's that were sold to Pakistan
ripping off japanesse cars and showing them in international autoshows
worlds first mag-lev train: designed by germans, made in china
improving on russian tanks from the cold war
buying vessels from the russian navy
and it just goes on


The Chinesse are not capable of actually designing something on the cutting edge.

Wasn't that same argument made in the 1950's about Japan and their TV's and cars and again in the 1980's about Korea? Spot any trends?

[sasquatch2]

dgthe3 Posted:

$1:

Agreed
F-16 and Leopard II tanks aren't exactly state of the art and are over 30 years old. They are both in the process of getting replaced. The F-16 wasn't even a top of the line fighter in the day, it was supposed to be a cheap export fighter. The Leo II is a good design and tanks last a bit longer in the field than fighters but it is getting to be almost 45 years old, and the Chinese can't match it for protection? That's pretty bad. They are trying to modernize their military to the equipment levels of the first gulf war. That was over 15 years ago, by the time they complete things all their new technology will be obsolete. The Russians could at least steal things and produce them in about 5 years. Sometimes they were even ahead. For all of China's recent development, they have made no advancement in engineering, which is what a modern power needs. Look at these examples:

going to space in a modified Russian rocket
building the Three gorges Dam designed by a German company
cloning American F-16's that were sold to Pakistan
ripping off japanese cars and showing them in international auto shows
worlds first maglev train: designed by Germans, made in china
improving on Russian tanks from the cold war
buying vessels from the Russian navy
and it just goes on


The Chinese are not capable of actually designing something on the cutting edge.

Good post.

The Russians have still to figure out Chobham Armour and how to defeat it. It was just too expensive to do the research and crippling in cost to produce it. As a result Chinese cutting edge tanks are just hard targets for NATO tanks---including LEO I's.

The problem the Chinese had in 1969 when they invaded North VietNam was they had finally attained
Korean War technology. Now they have attained Gulf I era Russian technology----not the Coalition level technology.

In 1969, they succeeded in penetrating only 40k into North VietNam and after a month and losses numbering in the thousands, withdrew because "they had punished the Vietnamese enough." During their withdrawn their scorched earth policy destroyed everything roads, bridges, railways, villages, trees and crops.

They have finally abandoned a rankless military and have armed all their troops with assault rifles not just officers. Whoopee Shit.

[Scape]

Here is the CIA's take on China in 2015

Davos World

$1:

Under this scenario, the Asian giants as well as other developing states continue to outpace most “Western” economies, and their huge, consumer-driven domestic markets become a major focus for global business and technology. Many boats are lifted, but some founder. Africa does better than one might think, while some medium-sized emerging countries are squeezed. Western powers, including the United States, have to contend with job insecurity despite the many benefits to be derived from an expanding global economy. Although benefiting from energy price increases, the Middle East lags behind and threatens the future of globalization. In addition, growing tensions over Taiwan may be on the verge of triggering an economic meltdown. At the end of the scenario, we identify some lessons to be drawn from our fictional account, including the need for more management by leaders lest globalization slip off the rails.

[bootlegga]

sasquatch2 sasquatch2:

Well before you get too wet about your heroes military modernization.

The PRC has produced a relatively modern tank T2000 which they have licenced production to pakistan and are offering for export. Due to serious mobility problems, the PLA is only slowly re-equiping with this. They have developed an improved version the T99 or T98 which is a vast improvement but due to it's cost of $1.8 million a unit, the PLA has only acquired 200. What is known is that it has a potent gun but protection is not up to the MI Abrams, Challenger, Leo II.

It has developed a new fighter, with the intent of being a counter to the F16, a copy of which they acquired from Pakistan. It is rumoured to be still in prototype stage due to stability problems.
Due to simple fact that the F16 is now old technology, this would perhaps but not necessarilly give a the PLAAF a unproven advantage against Tawain's AF. They would however be gun-fodder for the Raptor.

They purchased Russia's incomplete second air-craft carrier which was never completed and difficult and possibly impossible to make operational due to deterioration. They got it for scrap price which is what it really is.

Although the PRC has a more robust economy than the former USSR, it is obvious that modern weapons systems are not only not really available---there is signifigant doubt as to whether the PRC can pay for them.

Actually the J-10 (the PLA's new fighter) was built with Israeli, not Pakistani assistance, from their cancelled Lavi project. The Israelis also offered assistance in converting old transports into AWACs planes, but the US threatened to cut military assistance and Israel pulled out of that deal.

The PLA is a force capable of brute force and short range missions. Much feared Chinese-made weapons like the Silkworm were no threat in the first Gulf War. The PLA lacks aerial refueling, AWACs, AEGIS, and many other force multipliers, which means in a battle between just about any of their advanced neighbours (Japan, S. Korea, or even Taiwan), they will come out on the short end of the stick. They don't even have enough sealift to get more than 3 divisions across the Taiwan Strait...China and its citizens may want Taiwan as part of China, but all they can do is destroy Taiwan, not invade and occupy it. Seeing as Taiwan is one of China's biggest foreign investors, it would be tantamount to killing the golden goose.

The PLA realized after that Gulf War that their fleet of thousands of 1950s era fighters and tanks was worthless and has begun modernizing their inventory, but even after more than a decade, they still have only as much advanced weaponry as Taiwan OR Japan. Any intervention by the US seriously tips the scales against the Chinese.

And I agree that the Chinese economy, while stronger/healthier than the old Soviet one, is not capable of supporting a US-sized defence budget (3-10 times their current budget depending on whose numbers you believe). I think with hidden expenditures, it's somewhere around $75 billion, and there is no way the current economy can pay for $500-$600 billion in defence like the US does now.

[sasquatch2]

Yeah!

In the words of Mao....The PLA is "a paper tiger".

[bootlegga]

sasquatch2 sasquatch2:

Yeah!

In the words of Mao....The PLA is "a paper tiger".

I wouldn't call them a paper tiger, but they are not the menace that many would have you believe. In a decade or two, that may change, but right now, they have less power projection ability than Canada does.