[Delwin]

Luxury cars should not be exempt. I say this as someone who cant afford one. Luxury vehicles have the largest profit margins and their sale will help to drive the innovation that will eventually make these technologies affordable for everyone. People should ignore the fact that some rich guy got a good deal. Maybe he worked hard for it, maybe he saved a shit tonne in his illegal tax shelter. Who cares, going electric is the move we want him to make. Lets encourage it.

[2Cdo]

Delwin Delwin:

Luxury cars should not be exempt. I say this as someone who cant afford one. Luxury vehicles have the largest profit margins and their sale will help to drive the innovation that will eventually make these technologies affordable for everyone. People should ignore the fact that some rich guy got a good deal. Maybe he worked hard for it, maybe he saved a shit tonne in his illegal tax shelter. Who cares, going electric is the move we want him to make. Lets encourage it.

So they can plug them in and get powered up by coal and gas fired electric plants.

[Delwin]

Well we actually have renewable sources of electric energy as well. We don't have renewable sources of gasoline or diesel.

[2Cdo]

Delwin Delwin:

Well we actually have renewable sources of electric energy as well. We don't have renewable sources of gasoline or diesel.

Aah, the "peak oil" excuse. Twenty years ago I remember hearing that we only had twenty years of oil left, I hear the same silly alarmist talk today, and I imagine I'll be hearing it twenty years from now. Probably by the same people who will be warning about the coming Ice Age because the science is in.

[BeaverFever]

This is not that big of a deal. The EV rebate amount was the same regardless of whether it was a luxury car or a Chevy. The income of the buyer was not relevant because they are supporting the product, not the buyer.

That said, it seems they already put a cap based on eligible vehicle price back in February so it's a closed matter anyhow.

[DrCaleb]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

Delwin Delwin:

Well we actually have renewable sources of electric energy as well. We don't have renewable sources of gasoline or diesel.

Aah, the "peak oil" excuse. Twenty years ago I remember hearing that we only had twenty years of oil left, I hear the same silly alarmist talk today, and I imagine I'll be hearing it twenty years from now. Probably by the same people who will be warning about the coming Ice Age because the science is in.

He didn't invoke the 'peak' argument. He simply stated that petroleum is a limited commodity.

[2Cdo]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

2Cdo 2Cdo:

Delwin Delwin:

Well we actually have renewable sources of electric energy as well. We don't have renewable sources of gasoline or diesel.

Aah, the "peak oil" excuse. Twenty years ago I remember hearing that we only had twenty years of oil left, I hear the same silly alarmist talk today, and I imagine I'll be hearing it twenty years from now. Probably by the same people who will be warning about the coming Ice Age because the science is in.

He didn't invoke the 'peak' argument. He simply stated that petroleum is a limited commodity.

Fine, it was an "implied" statement.


Plus, are we 100% sure its a limited commodity.

[DrCaleb]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

Plus, are we 100% sure its a limited commodity.

Pretty sure. Evidence is that the bacteria and fungi that break down organic matter hadn't yet evolved yet when coal and oil deposits formed, which is why such large carbon deposits exist. Now organic matter breaks down, instead of forming coal and oil deposits, because of these bacteria and fungi.

We can synthesize some petroleum products from other material, but it's costly as far as energy input goes. In the long run, we'll do better by using other forms of energy when possible. Even Tesla runs their mega battery factory on renewable energy.

[Lemmy]

Sorry, has peak oil become part of climate denial? Because the numbers are what they are. US peak production was reached in 1970. That's not a theory. That's the numbers.

[andyt]

Even if the process of producing carbon fuels is still going on, it's so slow that of course there's a limit to ready made carbon fuels. If we include coal, we certainly seem to have enough to last a few generations, but it can't possibly be a limitless supply. Unless of course we include current biomass, ie biofuels. Let's hope by then we've become smarter in how we produce our usable energy.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Lemmy Lemmy:

So let's summarize:

1. Gov't introduced subsidy to encourage people to buy electric cars.

Ok, I'm with you so far

Lemmy Lemmy:

2. A handful of rich douchehammers filed claims on expensive electric cars and were reimbursed under this program.

Big surprise.

Lemmy Lemmy:

3. Ontario premier announces that the subsidy will be re-written to exempt luxury electric vehicles from the program, stating that that hadn't been anticipated when the program was launched.

So what's the issue here then?

The issue is once again, the LPO failed to think things all the way through while the taxpayers got to subsidize some millionaires buying expensive cars.
I know that I for one am just thrilled that I got to help some rich assholes get rebates of $150,000 each on some expensive personal toys.

Besides, all electric cars are doing is replacing one environmental problem with another.
If you doubt that statement, just look at where much of the battery production takes place and where much of the materials are mined from and then if you're old enough to remember, think back to the environmental disaster that was INCO in Sudbury prior to the mid '70s.

And finally, why are we even bothering? To make us look good or something? In 2010, while Alberta's oil fields were humming along quite nicely, Canada's GHGH contribution was 1.7% of the global total. To put it another way, despite the self-flagellation of the part of various govt officials, Canada's total annual GHG contribution is about HALF of what international shipping creates annually.

Some estimates suggest that the 16 largest container ships and supertankers alone generate more pollution and GHGs than all the world's ICE powered cars combined.

Besides, the whole thing quit being about the environment a while ago. Now it's about wealth redistribution so third world and developing countries can play catch-up while the West punishes itself for being so successful.

It's sad when common sense takes a back seat to the promotion of an ideology.

[andyt]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

I know that I for one am just thrilled that I got to help some rich assholes get rebates of $150,000 each on some expensive personal toys.



And finally, why are we even bothering? To make us look good or something? In 2010, while Alberta's oil fields were humming along quite nicely, Canada's GHGH contribution was 1.7% of the global total. To put it another way, despite the self-flagellation of the part of various govt officials, Canada's total annual GHG contribution is about HALF of what international shipping creates annually.

Some estimates suggest that the 16 largest container ships and supertankers alone generate more pollution and GHGs than all the world's ICE powered cars combined.

Hate to spoil a good rant, but

$1:

Documents obtained by CBC News show the taxpayer-funded rebates to five Porsche 918 Spyder buyers in Ontario averaged $5,538 each.

Does that 1.7% include all the carbon fuels we export? How about the supertankers we want to use to ship the oil we want to build pipelines to tidewater for? Not our responsibility? We just sell the stuff?

[2Cdo]

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRFPUS2&f=A

You're right but they're getting there again.

[Lemmy]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

The issue is once again, the LPO failed to think things all the way through while the taxpayers got to subsidize some millionaires buying expensive cars.
I know that I for one am just thrilled that I got to help some rich assholes get rebates of $150,000 each on some expensive personal toys.

Not the LPO, everyone. No one anticipated a $150K electric car. It's got nothing to do with the LPO. And it was $25K total, not $150K each. Regardless, it's not like this program cost taxpayers anything. The $150K Porsche sale netted the provincial government $12,000 in sales tax. Factor in the $5K rebate and the taxpayer's still up $7000 on that deal!

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Besides, all electric cars are doing is replacing one environmental problem with another. If you doubt that statement, just look at where much of the battery production takes place and where much of the materials are mined from and then if you're old enough to remember, think back to the environmental disaster that was INCO in Sudbury prior to the mid '70s.

There's nothing wrong with replacing one environmental problem with another if the "other" is a lesser problem or an easier solved or managed problem. I'm not following your logic with this Sudbury bit. Are you suggesting that Sudbury's problems came from demand for batteries and, therefore we should avoid using/making batteries?

PA9 PA9:

And finally, why are we even bothering? To make us look good or something? In 2010, while Alberta's oil fields were humming along quite nicely, Canada's GHGH contribution was 1.7% of the global total. To put it another way, despite the self-flagellation of the part of various govt officials, Canada's total annual GHG contribution is about HALF of what international shipping creates annually.

Some estimates suggest that the 16 largest container ships and supertankers alone generate more pollution and GHGs than all the world's ICE powered cars combined.

Red herring. You make your gains where you can make them and you start by making the gains where they're easiest to make first. No one said the process of getting off the carbon tit was going to be easy, nor immediate. Think of a homeowner with electric baseboard heating. He's pissed 'cause his hydro bill is high. Your logic is that he shouldn't even consider turning off a light he isn't using because, why bother? 90% of his hydro bill is heating so no point trying to save elsewhere on the electric bill. Your logic makes no sense whatsoever.

PA9 PA9:

Besides, the whole thing quit being about the environment a while ago. Now it's about wealth redistribution so third world and developing countries can play catch-up while the West punishes itself for being so successful.

It's sad when common sense takes a back seat to the promotion of an ideology.

That's 2/3 rhetoric and 1/3 nutty conspiracy.

[bootlegga]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Sorry, has peak oil become part of climate denial? Because the numbers are what they are. US peak production was reached in 1970. That's not a theory. That's the numbers.

Peak oil also said that when the conventional deposits were tapped, other more expensive, non-traditional methods (in this case, fracking and oil sands/shale oil) would be developed and used to try and maintain productions levels.

This chart shows it pretty well:




The fracking boom may actually get the US back above that 70s peak, but it's not expected to last very long (a decade or two probably) and eventually production will fall again until they tap other hard to find deposits (like in the Arctic), which may lead to another short term peak. But if the world needs to use the oil in Arctic, odds are the price per barrel will be ruinous.