[Thanos]

Hit a nerve there I guess. I'll leave you alone now. Give you some time to say a quick prayer to Gaia, then go light a candle and place it in front of your autographed picture of David Suzuki.

[BartSimpson]

Thanos Thanos:

Hit a nerve there I guess. I'll leave you alone now. Give you some time to say a quick prayer to Gaia, then go light a candle and place it in front of your autographed picture of David Suzuki.

[Thanos]

I have no heroes or icons anymore. That's why I'm immune to this celeb star-fucker crap.

[BeaverFever]

I don't even believe in the concept of heroes. There are people with particular achievements or accomplishments in specific areas but a " hero" is an idealized figure who is put up on a pedestal and deemed immune from any criticism on any subject.

[Strutz]

andyt andyt:

But on a talk show, when a caller suggested that we need to give FN kids better education so they can move to he city and get good jobs, the FN guest was quite aggrieved, saying that FN identity was based on the land.

They don't necessarily have to move to a city to get a good job. There are good jobs they can do right in their own community providing a service to their own people. Jobs mostly filled by temporary contracted non-FN's, many of whom get harassed for taking jobs away from FN's.

I have seen this for myself. Young FN's with the opportunity for a free 4-year college education to do something (for example teaching) and held back due to fear from their families that if they leave they may see life on the outside and not return.

A know of a young man, apparently quite the basketball player, offered a 4-year scholarship to play basketball and get a university education held back by his family who feared he'd not come back home.

So sad. Opportunities lost.

[andyt]

Sure. But if there is no base economy there that supports the community, ie where most adults work at paying jobs, then what you describe isn't much different than all the professionals working in the downtown east side. Some people refer to them as poverty pimps, because they make a good living spending govt money that never changes conditions for the people that live there. IE you can only have so many service jobs for people, and they have to supported by a productive economy, or trade those services to an outside community that does produce something. So if there aren't natural resources in the area that are being exploited, that FNs can work at, it's all based on sand. And we've seen how natural resource dependent towns fare. The resource dries up or loses value, and all of a sudden people have to move to find work. Which the FNs won't do.

Yes, they are far too insular in these remote reserves, often even the ones right in the city where they won't leave the reserve to get jobs. And we make it too comfortable for them. Sure they get less money than is spent on other towns that actually produce tax revenue, but they get way more than someone on welfare in the city, so it's too easy to just stay there and keep asking for more.

But I know, this is all racist, expecting FNs to work for a living the same way the rest of us do.

[martin14]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

$1:

Neil isn't seriously trying to imply that things have gotten better in SA since
the 'change' ?

I mena, Canadians aren't THAT stupid, are they ?

Regardless of crime rate, hat kind of person would think any apartheid state is better than one with rights and freedoms?

Yup, never mind the crime, and dead bodies, freedom to elect terrorists is the most important thing.

$1:

A previous Minister of Safety and Security, Charles Nqakula, evoked public outcry among South Africans in June 2006 when he responded to opposition MPs in parliament who were not satisfied that enough was being done to counter crime, suggesting that MPs who complain about the country's crime rate should stop complaining and leave the country

$1:

A survey for the period 1990–2000 compiled by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime ranked South Africa second for assault and murder (by all means) per capita and first for rapes per capita in a data set of 60 countries

Murder

Around 49 people are murdered in South Africa each day.[5] The murder rate increased rapidly in the late 1980s and early 1990s

Rape

The country has one of the highest rates of rape in the world, with some 65,000 rapes and other sexual assaults reported for the year ending in March 2012, or 127.6 per 100,000 people in the country.[12][13] The incidence of rape has led to the country being referred to as the "rape capital of the world".[14] One in three of the 4,000 women questioned by the Community of Information, Empowerment and Transparency said they had been raped in the past year

Car hijackings

South Africa also has a high record of car hijackings when compared with industrialised countries

Kidnapping in South Africa is a common in the country with over 4100 occurring in the 2013/2014 period, and a child going missing every five hours.

$1:

That's like saying prosperous and orderly Nazi Germany was a better place than crime-ridden and poverty-stricken post-war Germany. Not if you're a Jew.

In the new South Africa, you replace Jew with White.

$1:

Crime against commercial farmers is particularly high,[22] and the issue continues to attract significant media attention

Straight outta wiki.


I won't slide this thread any longer, if BF wants to really discuss SA, I'll open a thread
for it. Somehow, I'm guess he won't.

[BeaverFever]

Everybody knows reported crime went up in SA, you're too fucking stupid to understand that it's irrelevant. Freedom comes first. I mean what do you think happens anywhere when penniless slaves are freed from their economic prison? Everywhere on this earth poverty an disenfranchisement causes crime. And if the White slave masters have to endure a higher crime rate as the price of ending slavery, so be it. The slavery causes crime in the first place. And yes apartheid is in effect a form of slavery. What you fail to miss is thar crime only got worse for the slave masters. Life in the townships was always brutal and desperate. What you are saying is that the comfort of the slave owners is more important than the freedom of the slaves. And the slave owners only make up 9% of the population

Terrorists: If Iran invaded Canada and impised Sharia- based segregation on us you would not call those who resisted with violence terrorists. And so someone who takes up arms against an abomination like the SA apartheid regime. The jury is not out here, that regime went down in history as one of the brutal and repressive villain regimes

Whites are the Jews: Hardly! Blacks are 80% of the poopulation but 90% of the country's poor. 70% of South Africa’s land is still owned by whites, who are 9% of the population.

How fucking stupid are you that you can't understand??

[martin14]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Everybody knows reported crime went up in SA, you're too fucking stupid to understand that it's irrelevant. Freedom comes first.

Serious lefty does not agree.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... uzman.html

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

And if the White slave masters have to endure a higher crime rate as the price of ending slavery, so be it.

Well, thanks for coming out.

[BeaverFever]

You notice that she's not actually suggesting a return to apartheid right?????

[JaredMilne]

One thing a lot of people don't seem to realize about things like the residential schools, the "Sixties Scoop" and their impact on Aboriginal communities is that the schools were active all the way through the 20th century, including my grandparents' and parents' generation.

That's a damn long time for abuse, dysfunction and self-loathing to set in.

And when the dysfunction began manifesting in Indigenous families, the Indigenous peoples themselves were seen as being the only ones at fault, which led to incidents like the infamous "Sixties Scoop", where many Indigenous children were then taken into foster care with non-Native families, which made them feel even more disconnected from their identities and cultures.

Harold Cardinal wrote rather sardonically about how each generation of non-Native interveners came up with all kinds of solutions to try and fix the problems they saw...not realizing that those same problems were caused by the last generation of interveners.
That's the thing-these horrors occurred within living memory for a lot of Indigenous people, and their impacts can impact later generations and families. I have been fortunate not to experience the same kind of trauma and family dysfunction many other people have, but I'm sure we're all familiar with stories of how abuse and dysfunction in families can affect multiple generations, both in Indigenous and other families...and those other families weren't the ones targeted to be "civilized" by several generations of governments.

The schools and the institutionalized abuse are gone, but they're still a living memory for many people, as are their impacts on survivors.

[andyt]

Agreed. But the way forward is not just to shovel money at these survivors or give in to all their demands. They need help to move forward, and just like any survivor of abuse may need to face some uncomfortable truths along the way, and that they are still responsible for their behavior, can't just blame it on others. We should be prepared to spend a lot of money setting things right with the natives, but not just shovel the money at them to (mis)spend how they will. Maybe that's just another intervener talking, but it's how I see it.

[JaredMilne]

andyt andyt:

Agreed. But the way forward is not just to shovel money at these survivors or give in to all their demands. They need help to move forward, and just like any survivor of abuse may need to face some uncomfortable truths along the way, and that they are still responsible for their behavior, can't just blame it on others. We should be prepared to spend a lot of money setting things right with the natives, but not just shovel the money at them to (mis)spend how they will. Maybe that's just another intervener talking, but it's how I see it.

That's the thing-I have the same issue with the Indigenous sovereignists that I do with their Quebec counterparts. I'll repeat one of my old posts on the subject:

$1:

Of course, as one of my old professors pointed out-and he was himself Native, a guy from the Blood nation in southern Alberta near Calgary-if they're still reliant on Canada for so many things, then they're not really sovereign, are they? Some Native communities make their own passports, but if the country they're trying to visit won't accept the passports, or they get in trouble with the local authorities, whose embassy do you think they'll call on for help?

This is one area the Native activists who advocate the "sovereignty" thing you describe have in common with those Quebec separatists who advocate "sovereignty-association" whereby they would continue to use the Canadian dollar as currency, participate in trade negotiations, and stuff like that, basically still reaping the advantages of being associated with Canada without following the rest of the country when other national decisions are made.

I think that everyone would lose if Quebec were to leave Canada, and so I support recognizing that province as a distinct society in Canada. However, if they did decide to leave I wouldn't support Quebec continue to use our dollar, our embassies or anything like that-if Quebec were to leave, then it would have to be totally independent with its own currency, its own embassies, and so on.

Same thing with some of these Native groups-I'd be quite happy to recognize full-fledbed Aboriginal governments, with constitutional powers similar (but not necessarily identical) to those of the provinces when it comes to education, natural resources, etc. But not this "sovereignty-association" thing-if you really want to be sovereign, then issue your own currency, start setting up your own embassies, and so on.

[andyt]

If native governments are on the level of the provinces, they'd better find some sources of income so they can pay 3/4 of their medical system costs and 100percent of education, the big ticket items, not to mention all the rest. And PEI as a province is already ridiculous, some small reserve somewhere as a province is just out to lunch.