[BeaverFever]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Lemmy Lemmy:

If they all do it, and everyone hates it, then everyone can simply stop giving them money. I don't see the problem. Consumers have all the power.

They have the power, but not the knowledge about what is going on. They don't know that their computer spies on them, or that the cute app they just downloaded is taking their contact emails and sending them spam, etc. etc. . .

And many of the ones who do, seem to take Andy's position and assume that's 'just the way things are' so they let it happen.

Or they say "this sucks, but what am I supposed to do, plough these 100 acres by hand?"

[Public_Domain]

[BartSimpson]

Public_Domain Public_Domain:

Lemmy Lemmy:

If they all do it, and everyone hates it, then everyone can simply stop giving them money. I don't see the problem. Consumers have all the power.

I can not stand this argument that we all should just stop bitching and return to the trees if we have an issue with something. It's an absurdly defeatist pitch for the status quo. It's a market of false choices, rare or non-existent are the legitimate options that don't betray the consumer, rare is the truly aware and sovereign consumer able to find an option that is legitimate. Especially since there's obvious collusion, like among our own telecommunication services in Canada, to betray the consumer, misleading and swindling them.

"Don't like what car companies are doing? Well make your own or shut up!"

The way things keep going I sometimes wonder if the day will come when you'll be chopping off heads on Wall Street and I'll be giving you tips to improve your swing.

[Lemmy]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Yeah, farmers can just stop using tractors and we can all live like it's the 1800's again

Holy hyperbole, Beave. It's me that should be using that rollie-eye thing.

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

They have the power, but not the knowledge about what is going on. They don't know that their computer spies on them, or that the cute app they just downloaded is taking their contact emails and sending them spam, etc. etc. . .

And many of the ones who do, seem to take Andy's position and assume that's 'just the way things are' so they let it happen.

That's largely true. But what's the solution? I offered one: don't give them any more money. If consumers aren't informed consumers, well, I have no solution. Bitching on the internet about "evil corporations" sure ain't gonna do anything. Again, consumers' power lies in their power to spend, or not. And that's the sort of power that will get a corporation's attention.

Public_Domain Public_Domain:

Lemmy Lemmy:

If they all do it, and everyone hates it, then everyone can simply stop giving them money. I don't see the problem. Consumers have all the power.

I can not stand this argument that we all should just stop bitching and return to the trees if we have an issue with something. It's an absurdly defeatist pitch for the status quo. It's a market of false choices, rare or non-existent are the legitimate options that don't betray the consumer, rare is the truly aware and sovereign consumer able to find an option that is legitimate. Especially since there's obvious collusion, like among our own telecommunication services in Canada, to betray the consumer, misleading and swindling them.

"Don't like what car companies are doing? Well make your own or shut up!"

I didn't say things would be easy, nor is it defeatist. But the fact remains that consumers' power lies in their ability to choose who gets their money.

And "build your own" is a great idea. It's an entrepreneurial opportunity to step up and build a superior product. And if there really is demand for something different than what John Deere's peddling, then you ought to be laughing all the way to the bank.

[BeaverFever]

$1:

But the fact remains that consumers' power lies in their ability to choose who gets their money.

And "build your own" is a great idea. It's an entrepreneurial opportunity to step up and build a superior product. And if there really is demand for something different than what John Deere's peddling, then you ought to be laughing all the way to the bank.

I find that to be a very naive understanding of the way things work in teh real world.

[Lemmy]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

I find that to be a very naive understanding of the way things work in teh real world.

Got a better solution?

[Canadian_Mind]

Lemmy Lemmy:

If they all do it, and everyone hates it, then everyone can simply stop giving them money. I don't see the problem. Consumers have all the power.

Except that when equipment wears out, it needs to be replaced. These aren't tvs for recreational use where talking about where people can get by without them. These are combines and threshers that farmers need for the sake of their livelyhood and for the sake of keeping us all fed. Do you propose farmers go broke not farming, and thus we all starve, so that the consumer can exert their power?

As for starting up competition, do you have the 2.5 billion I'd need to start up a competitor to Kubota, John Deere and New Holland from scratch?

[DrCaleb]

Lemmy Lemmy:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

They have the power, but not the knowledge about what is going on. They don't know that their computer spies on them, or that the cute app they just downloaded is taking their contact emails and sending them spam, etc. etc. . .

And many of the ones who do, seem to take Andy's position and assume that's 'just the way things are' so they let it happen.

That's largely true. But what's the solution? I offered one: don't give them any more money. If consumers aren't informed consumers, well, I have no solution. Bitching on the internet about "evil corporations" sure ain't gonna do anything. Again, consumers' power lies in their power to spend, or not. And that's the sort of power that will get a corporation's attention.

The only tool we have is 'education'. But we are up against the marketing machine that convinces people that they need one tablet or phone over another because it has the most 'apps' to buy.

[DrCaleb]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

Lemmy Lemmy:

If they all do it, and everyone hates it, then everyone can simply stop giving them money. I don't see the problem. Consumers have all the power.

Except that when equipment wears out, it needs to be replaced. These aren't tvs for recreational use where talking about where people can get by without them. These are combines and threshers that farmers need for the sake of their livelyhood and for the sake of keeping us all fed. Do you propose farmers go broke not farming, and thus we all starve, so that the consumer can exert their power?

It goes much deeper than that. It's not just tractors, but computers, cars, the phone in your pocket. . . tractors are just a simplistic example.

It's getting to be difficult to buy a 'smart' TV that isn't required to be internet connected now. Once you internet connect it, you open it to whatever the manufacturer wants to do with it. What's to stop them from slapping a yearly fee on it? The same can be applied to cars, fridges, lawnmowers . . .

[Lemmy]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

Except that when equipment wears out, it needs to be replaced. These aren't tvs for recreational use where talking about where people can get by without them. These are combines and threshers that farmers need for the sake of their livelyhood and for the sake of keeping us all fed. Do you propose farmers go broke not farming, and thus we all starve, so that the consumer can exert their power?

So you're saying, then, that this is fight worth making, except it isn't? If it's a big enough deal for farmers to fight it, they will. If they aren't willing to make that fight and hand more money over to John Deere, well, I guess they exaggerated their outrage.

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

As for starting up competition, do you have the 2.5 billion I'd need to start up a competitor to Kubota, John Deere and New Holland from scratch?

This is a market large enough to keep 3 big corporations in business? Wow, if that's the case then it really is an opportunity. If there is such universal outrage among farmers over this, and you can offer them an alternative, they'll be banging at your door to hand you the money to build them what they want.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

Except that when equipment wears out, it needs to be replaced. These aren't tvs for recreational use where talking about where people can get by without them. These are combines and threshers that farmers need for the sake of their livelyhood and for the sake of keeping us all fed. Do you propose farmers go broke not farming, and thus we all starve, so that the consumer can exert their power?

So you're saying, then, that this is fight worth making, except it isn't? If it's a big enough deal for farmers to fight it, they will. If they aren't willing to make that fight and hand more money over to John Deere, well, I guess they exaggerated their outrage.

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

As for starting up competition, do you have the 2.5 billion I'd need to start up a competitor to Kubota, John Deere and New Holland from scratch?

This is a market of customers large enough to keep 3 big corporations in business? Wow, if that's the case then it really is an opportunity. If there is such universal outrage among farmers over this, and you can offer them an alternative, they'll be banging at your door to hand you the money to build them what they want.

Just 3? Really? I think CM was using those as examples, not an entire list of the industry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... ufacturers

Yeah, good luck breaking into that market as a new start up.

[DrCaleb]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Yeah, good luck breaking into that market as a new start up.

Elon Musk made his money from taking a cut of internet purchases, started Tesla in an industrial area before buying a leftover factory from GM and Toyota, and had enough left over to create a company to compete with NASA.

Don't sell people short!

[Lemmy]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Yeah, good luck breaking into that market as a new start up.

Defeatism never got anyone anywhere. Got another solution then? I offered one: don't give money to companies whose products aren't worthy of your dollars. What do you figure's likely to enact more change, my solution or bitching on the internet? If you've got a better solution I'd like to hear it.

[BeaverFever]

Lemmy Lemmy:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

I find that to be a very naive understanding of the way things work in teh real world.

Got a better solution?

Yeah, not drafting draconian laws that prohibit people from reasonable use of their own property, for starters.

A 'free market' supposedly gives consumers what they want, not tells them what they can have and how they can use it. A market where private businesses are only profitable when heavy government hand is imposed on customers is not a free market.

Don't get me wrong, I of course believe there is a role for government in the market, typically for things such as to protect public safety (e.g. can't sell guns to kids), give force to contracts, and yes, even protect patents and copyrights. But so much of this DMCA is excessive and exists only to benefit corporations at the expense of the public.

[Prof_Chomsky]

Thank you Republicans. Or should I say, business shills.
Cause you know, anything that benefits big business, benefits us all. Also, Brondo's got what crops crave - electrolytes!