[BartSimpson]

Thanos Thanos:

There's no way that Canada would ever be able to afford to build/maintain the kind of naval force that would be required to patrol three maritime fronts.

Guard it or lose it. Or just sell it off before someone steals it.

[Jabberwalker]

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=w ... op1BtFF8lw

The Russians have put on a bigArctic exercise this spring. Expect more show of power to accompany today's claim of the North Pole.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world ... ed-nations

Loose it is what is going to happen.they could occupy a big chunk of it tomorrow morning, knowing full well that no one is going to push the nuclear button and destroy the human race over uninhabited Arctic islands.

Canadians will say "tut, tut, those bad old Russians" as they go back to sipping their law-tays.

[Vamp018]

I hereby Petition the Queen of England to toss Canada out of the Common Wealth as Canada cant defend Commonwealth interest nor it's own border's.

[Thanos]

Had a hard time today rescuing all those air mattresses that got caught in the outgoing tide?

[bootlegga]

Canadians can try to lay blame all they want, but the sad truth is that the vast majority of Canadians themselves are to blame. If it was as big a priority as a GST cut or social programs, we would gave held the government's feet to the fire and gotten something done.

The sad fact is that most Canadians just don't give a damn about the military.

The next biggest chunk of blame goes to military brass, who bicker over what is needed and because of the cyclical nature of the position of Chief of Defense Staff, the military plays favourites and lobbies for equipment for their branch, instead of what the CF needs.

People love to praise Hiller to high heaven, but the only equipment he ever lobbied for was that which supported the Army (his branch of the CF). He totally neglected the Navy and only got aircraft for the RCAF which supported army deployments.

Even Army guys here like Pentrator disagreed about the need for new ships during the Red Sea deployment because we still had troops in Afghanistan, even though we'd bought some new tanks, artillery, mine-resistant trucks and leased Chinooks for the 'Stan.

Look at the SAR contract - a Canadian company offered to re-design the Buffalo to modern standards AND build it in Victoria and Calgary, but the military insisted it had to have the C-27 or C-295, going so far as to rig the competition against everyone else.

Finally, the last chunk of blame goes to politicians who only care about votes and getting re-elected. They dither on stuff and postpone, cancel then re-launch projects over and over without accomplishing anything at all. Look at the JSS - it's was started, postponed and re-started two or three times just under the Conservatives, nevermind the decade it limped along under the Liberals (starting from about 1996 or so IIRC).

As bad as the 90s were under the Liberals, I'd argue the last decade under the Conservatives was just as bad, with very little in the way of major procurement but lots of missions and damaged equipment that needs replacing desperately. IMHO, Harper is actually worse than Chretien because he is so hypocritical about (praises the military while cutting spending and dragging his feet on procurement).

[BartSimpson]

Face it, the majority of Canadians are anti-military and they'd rather just default their defense to the USA than spend on it.

And that's a failed strategy given that six and a half years of Obama has made clear that you cannot bet your national security on whether or not a US President gives a shit about Canada.

[bootlegga]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Face it, the majority of Canadians are anti-military and they'd rather just default their defense to the USA than spend on it.

And that's a failed strategy given that six and a half years of Obama has made clear that you cannot bet your national security on whether or not a US President gives a shit about Canada.

No, anti-military means they actually dislike the military when in fact it's more a case of apathy and greed (like wanting a national daycare program instead of new ships).

[Jabberwalker]

bootlegga bootlegga:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Face it, the majority of Canadians are anti-military and they'd rather just default their defense to the USA than spend on it.

And that's a failed strategy given that six and a half years of Obama has made clear that you cannot bet your national security on whether or not a US President gives a shit about Canada.

No, anti-military means they actually dislike the military when in fact it's more a case of apathy and greed (like wanting a national daycare program instead of new ships).

... or pretty damn close to total ignorance about the Armed Forces.

[bootlegga]

Yep, ignorance is part of it too.

[BartSimpson]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Yep, ignorance is part of it too.

Well, that's a reason to bring back conscription. You obviously need a broader segment of society being informed of what the military does aside from just those people with a sense of duty and service.

[herbie]

No Prime Minister before has let the Navy degrade to the point there's no destroyers.
Which might not even matter if there was even a formal plan to model it like Australia's navy with smaller ships. And let me point out Australia has ACTUAL threats and concerns not ones that are entirely imaginary.
Bootlegga's pointed out the main concern, total bullshit politics that have hampered any military maintenance or buildups.
My ex and I were affected by that in the early 80s when they shut down the Freghtliner and Kenworth plants and built a factory in Quebec to make trucks for the army. Then ordered so many they rotted away. Even went to an auction a few years back to bid on a Iltis for an offroad toy. Same thing, built them in Quebec for four times the cost from VW. There's this mindset that we HAVE TO arm ourselves with anything but what the Americans use, even though we could get stuff for half the cost or less and get it tomorrow.

So yeah, until the gov't gets its shit in order it's not a priority for most Canadians. My pension, health care and daycare for my grandkids is.

[CountLothian]

Our military died with the death of the Avro Arrow . At the time it was the top fighter plane ever introduced.

We could have become one of the world's leading manufacturer of weapons.

When the Canadian government invests in RD we excel.

There was a time after the Canadian Government invested in speaker technology RD we produced world class speakers.

With the sale and production of modern weapons we could fund a far better military and equip them with world class weaponry.

My opinion and that of others even with the low grade material our armed forces is used to , we fair very well in any Theatre of War

[BartSimpson]

CountLothian CountLothian:

Our military died with the death of the Avro Arrow . At the time it was the top fighter plane ever introduced.

No, it didn't and no, it wasn't.

Your military isn't 'dead' quite yet. It's a shell of its former self but it is not dead.

The Arrow was a lovely interceptor for nuclear armed bombers and the advent of the ICBM made it obsolete because it was designed with a single purpose in mind: intercepting Russian bombers and killing them.

It was ungainly at low speeds and would've been poor at ground support if it had been configured for bombing missions. It also would've fared poorly in dogfights but would have likely performed well in head-on high speed confrontations assuming the plane was equipped with munitions that were capable of higher speeds than the plane itself.

I say that last part because the fighter version of the SR-71 was a failure given that the aircraft was faster than any weapon of it's time. The Arrow would have also had to face this challenge in an air battle.

The engineering concepts in the Arrow clearly influenced other aircraft of the period most notably the F-4 Phantom which was a multi-role platform that performed well for forty years. The shortcomings and advantages of the delta wing also led to the significant innovations of variable configuration aircraft such as the F-14 and F-111.

It was a great plane that probably contributed to its own demise as the obvious superiority of the Arrow as an interceptor forced the Russians to change their focus from long-range bombers to land based and submarine launched ICBMs.

It also ran afoul of the then-growing Canadian impetus to spend more on social programs than defense.

[CountLothian]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

CountLothian CountLothian:

Our military died with the death of the Avro Arrow . At the time it was the top fighter plane ever introduced.

No, it didn't and no, it wasn't.

.

$1:

It also ran afoul of the then-growing Canadian impetus to spend more on social programs than defense.

Sorry Bart but I disagree.
It was hands down the fastest plane on it's inception. The entire program was shut down, is the sticking point.

It was in it's infancy when pulled by a conservative government under Diefenbaker who wasn't at all known for social program spending.

Scuttle butt , or what we now call conspiracy theories , had it at the time it's demise came from a wish from Washington.

Which i'm sure someone older than me would recall.

We were pretty damn good at land mines for awhile. some broad in the British royalty put the kibosh on those . lol..


My point is thus./ Once a country is held back in RD for the military machine it weakens it's ability to create a world class military.

I'm not a war monger and feel Canada should be a neutral player in everything WAR!!!

We should be a country who doesn't take sides in any war and are there to help with casualties on both sides.

Bills should be enacted that no one in any level of government can comment on who is in the right or wrong in a foreign confrontation.

that will never happen.

[2Cdo]

CountLothian CountLothian:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

CountLothian CountLothian:

Our military died with the death of the Avro Arrow . At the time it was the top fighter plane ever introduced.

No, it didn't and no, it wasn't.

.

$1:

It also ran afoul of the then-growing Canadian impetus to spend more on social programs than defense.

Sorry Bart but I disagree.
It was hands down the fastest plane on it's inception. The entire program was shut down, is the sticking point.

It was in it's infancy when pulled by a conservative government under Diefenbaker who wasn't at all known for social program spending.

Scuttle butt , or what we now call conspiracy theories , had it at the time it's demise came from a wish from Washington.

Which i'm sure someone older than me would recall.

We were pretty damn good at land mines for awhile. some broad in the British royalty put the kibosh on those . lol..


My point is thus./ Once a country is held back in RD for the military machine it weakens it's ability to create a world class military.

I'm not a war monger and feel Canada should be a neutral player in everything WAR!!!

We should be a country who doesn't take sides in any war and are there to help with casualties on both sides.

Bills should be enacted that no one in any level of government can comment on who is in the right or wrong in a foreign confrontation.

that will never happen.

Congratulations. That is definitely your most moronic post ever.