[uwish]

the problem with NDP's socialist agenda is you soon run out of other peoples money.

[Lemmy]

uwish uwish:

most people that slam C-51 haven't even read it, so I will take the high ground here, just like those who are yelling 'won't someone think of the children' in context of C-42 and how it does NOTHING but remove some paperwork.

As someone who has, in the past, advocated strongly that people who aren't criminal shouldn't be treated as such, with respect to firearms legislation and registries, you ought to be in the "Very much against C-51" camp.

[andyt]

uwish uwish:

the problem with NDP's socialist agenda is you soon run out of other peoples money.

Down to truisms I see. Not partisan at all.

Better to be out of money than in the gulag where you don't need it.

[martin14]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

They've been playing too much to the centre left voters rather than the Liberals traditional base in the centre and centre right. They need to worry about trying to sway those who voted for the CPC last election, rather than compete with the NDP.

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Yeah, I think htey are too close to the Conservatives.

andyt andyt:

The Libs took a dive when they supported C51. It's actually because they've been to close to the CPC that they're tanking, vs the NDP taking a consistent stand.

hmmmm, let me see.


The centrist says the Lieberals are too left wing.

The left winger says the Lieberals are too right wing.


The batshit insane Marxist is flailing his arms, and has no idea what to do,
except whining about stuff not too many people actually care about.




I would like to remind the peanut gallery in the recent UK election, the center left
self destructed because of exactly this too left wing / not left wing enough split.
The farther left parties also fucked up, concocting all kinds of coalition deals.
Hopefully it will happen again.

Secondly, the pollsters got the UK election all wrong; really badly wrong.
No one believed the exit polls when they first came out, because they were so different
from the pollsters.

Turns out, the pollsters spent too much time listening to young kids with big mouths on Twitter, and framing stupid questions for everyone else.
The 'undecided' vote swung almost all to the Cons, so something fundamentally wrong.

Don't believe the pollsters this time.

[herbie]

Senate scandals. pipelines and oil tankers, foreign adventures while Cdn forces starved of equipment, oil at half price while gasoline prices down maybe 20%, lend money for US & Mexican auto plants while they close here, sells Wheat Board to Saudis, tax money spent on advertising (to the lowest common denominator), Bill C-51, proven track record that shows either inability to comprehend or outright opposition to the Charter of Rights, contempt for First Nations, dollar tanking, prices rising, incomes not growing, muzzling scientists, sagging R&D, ass backwards marijuana policy, foreign workers and anti-collective bargaining, poor prospects for seniors...
shall I go on?

[Zipperfish]

uwish uwish:

usually when comments run the form of ad hominem I know who the real 'dimwit' truly is. My political views are evolving and more in line with policy that makes sense as opposed to where it came from (left, right center).

most people that slam C-51 haven't even read it, so I will take the high ground here, just like those who are yelling 'won't someone think of the children' in context of C-42 and how it does NOTHING but remove some paperwork.

Where did I say anything about Bill C-51? You seem to have an issue with someone being partisan, when the entire point of an election is to be partisan. That's what voting for a party is, by definition.

Bill C-51 is a monster. I doubt many people have read it, including you.

[uwish]

Lemmy Lemmy:

uwish uwish:

most people that slam C-51 haven't even read it, so I will take the high ground here, just like those who are yelling 'won't someone think of the children' in context of C-42 and how it does NOTHING but remove some paperwork.

As someone who has, in the past, advocated strongly that people who aren't criminal shouldn't be treated as such, with respect to firearms legislation and registries, you ought to be in the "Very much against C-51" camp.

please tell me how this legislation treats you as a criminal..please I am waiting...

[uwish]

herbie herbie:

Senate scandals. pipelines and oil tankers, foreign adventures while Cdn forces starved of equipment, oil at half price while gasoline prices down maybe 20%, lend money for US & Mexican auto plants while they close here, sells Wheat Board to Saudis, tax money spent on advertising (to the lowest common denominator), Bill C-51, proven track record that shows either inability to comprehend or outright opposition to the Charter of Rights, contempt for First Nations, dollar tanking, prices rising, incomes not growing, muzzling scientists, sagging R&D, ass backwards marijuana policy, foreign workers and anti-collective bargaining, poor prospects for seniors...
shall I go on?

your trying to blame all of that on the current government? Like they changed the senate rules right when Harper took over PMO's office, and lets not talk about how NO government likes to fund the military or do I need to point out that it was Chretien who specifically said he hated spending anything on them? And I like how you lump in oil and gas prices as if ANY sitting government has much to do about that..good try though. Your lack of understanding general global economic forces falls out clearly by trying to throw rising food prices and income not growing in the same sentence as if it has anything to do with whomever is the acting government.

[Zipperfish]

Well if the country is at the whims of "general global ecvonomic forces" then there goes the argument about voting in the Conservatvies because they are good for the economy.

[DrCaleb]

uwish uwish:

Lemmy Lemmy:

uwish uwish:

most people that slam C-51 haven't even read it, so I will take the high ground here, just like those who are yelling 'won't someone think of the children' in context of C-42 and how it does NOTHING but remove some paperwork.

As someone who has, in the past, advocated strongly that people who aren't criminal shouldn't be treated as such, with respect to firearms legislation and registries, you ought to be in the "Very much against C-51" camp.

please tell me how this legislation treats you as a criminal..please I am waiting...

You will no longer have this thing called 'privacy'.

$1:

First, the bill permits information sharing across government for an incredibly wide range of purposes, most of which have nothing to do with terrorism (“It is, quite simply, the broadest concept of security that we have ever seen codified into law in Canada.”).
Second, the scope of sharing is remarkably broad: 17 government institutions with the prospect of cabinet expansion as well as further disclosure “to any person, for any purpose.”
Third, the oversight over public sector privacy has long been viewed as inadequate. In fact, calls for Privacy Act reform date back over three decades. The notion that the law is equipped to deal with this massive expansion in sharing personal information is simply not credible

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/2015/02/tota ... bill-c-51/

$1:

As a result of SCISA, 17 government institutions involved in national security would have virtually limitless powers to monitor and, with the assistance of Big Data analytics, to profile ordinary Canadians, with a view to identifying security threats among them. In a country governed by the rule of law, it should not be left for national security agencies to determine the limits of their powers. Generally, the law should prescribe clear and reasonable standards for the sharing, collection, use and retention of personal information, and compliance with these standards should be subject to independent and effective review mechanisms, including the courts.

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/2015/03/why- ... t-privacy/

It makes you give up freedom of association for some 'security'

$1:

NDP MPs Craig Scott and Linda Duncan were part of the crowd gathered outside Canada Place in downtown Edmonton. Some placards called the bill "criminalization of dissent" and warned "big brother is watching you."

Protesters said they are worried the bill will be used to harass or silence critics of the government's environmental and aboriginal policies.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/bill-c- ... -1.2994226

It criminalized certain forms of speech, expression and association; and lowers the threshold for arrest:

$1:

The Criminal Code already makes it illegal to counsel anyone to commit a terrorism offence and to instruct or facilitate terrorist acts. But Bill C-51 wants to create an additional offence called ‘advocating or promoting terrorism.’ It would criminalize speech in support of ‘terrorism offences in general,’ and includes no requirement that the speaker actually intends for a terrorism offence to be committed. Indeed, there’s no requirement that a terrorism offence even take place.

It’s unclear even to experts exactly what kinds of speech and protest activity may be considered threats to national security if the bill passes; the average Canadian has little hope of feeling confident that their legitimate political activity hasn’t inadvertently crossed the line. Bill C-51’s expansive language means that Canadians will likely choose not to express themselves even in completely legal ways rather than risk prosecution. Legitimate speech will be chilled, and our democracy will be worse off for it.

Currently the Criminal Code permits the police to arrest, detain and impose restrictions (such as a curfew or travel ban) on someone who has never been (and may never be) charged with a crime if they have good reasons to believe that a terrorist activity will be carried out if these actions aren’t taken. Bill C-51 would lower the threshold for these actions to situations where the police believe that a terrorist activity might be carried out. It also doubles the amount of time an individual can be detained without charge. Innocent people could be arrested and detained on mere suspicion of future dangerousness.

https://bccla.org/2015/03/8-things-you- ... bill-c-51/

Annnnd the best part - no extra oversight how these new powers are used.

[martin14]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

You will no longer have this thing called 'privacy'.

No longer ?

You think you had any in the last 15-20 years anyway ?

Nope.

And it will only get worse, it's again too many people think it's "only happening in Canada".

It's not.

[OnTheIce]

It's only a matter of time before the NDP emplodes and the left starts talking coalition government.

Neither 'The Beard' or 'The Kid' scream leadership. JT's looked like more of a follower to the CPC part and TM looks like a bat-shit-crazy NDP'er that will take the party back into the dark ages.

[Zipperfish]

martin14 martin14:

No longer ?

You think you had any in the last 15-20 years anyway ?

Nope.

And it will only get worse, it's again too many people think it's "only happening in Canada".

It's not.

The bolded part is the only part I disagree with. It can better if we make it get better.

[Thanos]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

martin14 martin14:

No longer ?

You think you had any in the last 15-20 years anyway ?

Nope.

And it will only get worse, it's again too many people think it's "only happening in Canada".

It's not.

The bolded part is the only part I disagree with. It can better if we make it get better.

No it won't because the natural arc of the universe is for things to get worse, not better. When the conversation is already permanently hijacked by a mentality that views data mining as equivalent to being deported to Auschwitz then the possibility for reasonable disagreement has already been lost.

[Lemmy]

uwish uwish:

please tell me how this legislation treats you as a criminal..please I am waiting...

Batting practice fastball:

Allows extended detention without a bail hearing, violating habeas corpus

Chills free speech, including criminalizing speech

Flight and travel can be restricted without disclosing causes or evidence

Allows CSIS and other security agencies to collect and store "data".

Allows government agencies, like the DMV or Health Canada or your doctor to provide your private information to CSIS and law enforcement

It gives the government unprecedented power to spy on Canadians. As Doc said above, no one will have privacy anymore. If that's not the definition of "treating us as criminals" I don't know what does.