[BartSimpson]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

I'm always amazed at the atheists/agnostics who don't believe in religion or God but still go to such lengths to erase any mention or display of the same.

I'll refer to these militant types as "religiphobes" from now on.

No kidding! Seriously, it'd be pretty impressive if supposed believers invested as much effort into believing in God as some of these shitstains invest into something they say doesn't exist.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

andyt andyt:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

Why would anyone want to pray at a council meeting?

Because some people still believe in an authority aside from the Almighty State.

here are some of those people now:

I'll see your mob and raise you the non-separation of mosque and state, in Canada http://cdn.torontolife.com/wp-content/u ... _intro.jpg

That is part of Valley Park Middle School being used for Islamic instruction during school hours.

So, to summarize once again; Christian prayer before city council meetings is verboten. Islamic instruction in our PUBLIC schools during school hours is perfectly acceptable.
One cannot logically argue for the separation of church and state while permitting special state "accommodation" for minority religions.

[andyt]

Are all the students forced to attend this, or is it voluntary? You can't seem to be able to distinguish between government functions, that cannot discriminate as to religion, must welcome everybody, and using part of a school for special instruction for voluntary attendees. As long as that school makes rooms available for anybody that wants to teach a specific religion, it's not a problem. They are not foisting a particular religion on anybody.

[sandorski]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

andyt andyt:

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

until there's a non Christian City council or Mayor demanding their own prayer in council meetings and not being censored for it

The same people supporting this mayor would have apoplexy if a mayor wanted to pray to Allah.

I don't understand why these yo yos are unable to just have a moment of silence, where they are free to pray all they want, just silently. Shows that it's not about practicing their beliefs but about shoving it down other people's throats.

There's the left-wing tolerance we always hear about.

What part of his statement is not tolerant?

[BartSimpson]

andyt andyt:

Are all the students forced to attend this, or is it voluntary? You can't seem to be able to distinguish between government functions, that cannot discriminate as to religion, must welcome everybody, and using part of a school for special instruction for voluntary attendees. As long as that school makes rooms available for anybody that wants to teach a specific religion, it's not a problem. They are not foisting a particular religion on anybody.

So you'd be okay with Christian instruction returning to the public schools so long as only Christians had to attend? I say it this way because as I read it the Muslim students don't get to opt-out of their religious instruction.

[andyt]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

andyt andyt:

Are all the students forced to attend this, or is it voluntary? You can't seem to be able to distinguish between government functions, that cannot discriminate as to religion, must welcome everybody, and using part of a school for special instruction for voluntary attendees. As long as that school makes rooms available for anybody that wants to teach a specific religion, it's not a problem. They are not foisting a particular religion on anybody.

So you'd be okay with Christian instruction returning to the public schools so long as only Christians had to attend? I say it this way because as I read it the Muslim students don't get to opt-out of their religious instruction.

Which means it's bullshit.

These are not classes but prayers. The school instituted them at the school, because Muslim kids were skipping class to go to the local mosque to pray and then often not coming back to school.

Many places have prayer rooms, for use by anybody. I have no problem with high schools having these, same as unis already do. The only thing the school would need to do is allow all students to go pray, not just the Muslims.

[andyt]

sandorski sandorski:

2Cdo 2Cdo:

andyt andyt:

The same people supporting this mayor would have apoplexy if a mayor wanted to pray to Allah.

I don't understand why these yo yos are unable to just have a moment of silence, where they are free to pray all they want, just silently. Shows that it's not about practicing their beliefs but about shoving it down other people's throats.

There's the left-wing tolerance we always hear about.

What part of his statement is not tolerant?

Don't ask him complicated questions like that. He's just knee jerking.

[BartSimpson]

andyt andyt:

Which means it's bullshit.

These are not classes but prayers. The school instituted them at the school, because Muslim kids were skipping class to go to the local mosque to pray and then often not coming back to school.

Many places have prayer rooms, for use by anybody. I have no problem with high schools having these, same as unis already do. The only thing the school would need to do is allow all students to go pray, not just the Muslims.

http://www.torontolife.com/informer/fea ... e_anchor_1

These kids are Muslims and the mosque is compelling them to attend instruction (because that's what such prayer sessions really are) and the government is, by proxy, compelling these children to attend by allowing the mosque to come into the school to ensure attendance.

No Christian church would be (or should be) allowed to do this.

Nor should the mosque.

[andyt]

The mosque has the same power over these kids as do Christian churches over Christians - ie only persuasion. The kids are either compelled by their parents or their own beliefs.

I have no problem with voluntary religious classes being taught in public schools. I would like to see a religious survey course taught in schools that would be compulsory.

[Zipperfish]

People are so thin-skinned. Who cares? I grew up saying the Lord's Prayer every morning at school and I don't think it had any horrible effect on me. Just check your email or something if you don't want to pray. I agree with Pan though--if this were Muslims it would have been a different result.

[andyt]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

People are so thin-skinned. Who cares? I grew up saying the Lord's Prayer every morning at school and I don't think it had any horrible effect on me. Just check your email or something if you don't want to pray. I agree with Pan though--if this were Muslims it would have been a different result.

So did most of us, in grade school. And at some point they realized that forcing kids to pray to a specific religion wasn't on anymore. My high school had a large Jewish contingent - doubt the Lord's prayer would have gone over well there. The point is that the state should not advocate or promote a particular religion.

As for Muslims, as I said before, if this Mayor was praying to Allah, the same people who think Christian prayer is just fine would wind up drowning in all the foam coming out of their mouths.


St John mayor is just on - they have prayers there, but from all religions on a rotational basis. (For some reason St John only has Christians and Jews living there.)

WTF is so hard about just praying silently?

[BeaverFever]

People say government should try to be more like the private sector. Well most places of business you just show up and get to work, rhe CEO doesn't lead the workers in prayer, aloud or silent. That is the normal way of doing things. Organized prayer is about forcing your beliefs or the spectacle of beliefs on other people.

[JaredMilne]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

I'm always amazed at the atheists/agnostics who don't believe in religion or God but still go to such lengths to erase any mention or display of the same.

I'll refer to these militant types as "religiphobes" from now on.

I remember at my graduation ceremonies at the University of Alberta, we had a First Nations elder do a brief prayer to the Creator.

However, there was also a case around that time about students demanding that references to God be removed from the ceremony...

$1:

The University of Alberta's Atheists and Agnostics (A & A) society wants to take God off the program when students line up in caps and gowns to get their degrees this, reports Thaddeus M. Baklinski, LifeSiteNews.com.

Traditionally the chancellor's speech to the new graduates urges them to use their knowledge for "the glory of God and the honour of your country."

Ian Bushfield, head of the university's A & A association, objects to this and has petitioned the University of Alberta to remove the reference to God in the traditional convocation speech.

Bushfield said the reference is outdated and not reflective of recent national surveys that found about 35 per cent of Canadians under 25 do not believe in a God.

"What they are doing is basically implying that everyone who graduates from the university should be doing certain things with their degree, and this kind of charge requires a belief in something up to one-third of campus might not have," Bushfield told the Calgary Herald on Friday.

"We want an inclusive convocation where everyone feels welcome and able to participate," said Bushfield in a Canadian Press report.

Now, I have absolutely no problem at all with a Native elder come in to do a prayer. What I'm baffled by, though, is why references to the Christian God would need to be removed. What is so objectionable to Christianity that means it should be removed, but references to other types of spirituality and religion are not?

Are they implying that the elder's prayer applied only to the Aboriginal graduates, and so the rest of us don't have to worry about it applying to us? Or is it that Christianity has often been the religion of many of the ethnocultural groups that have historically had the most wealth and power? But if that's the case, then it's not so much about religion as it is having an axe to grind against some of the groups that are popularly attributed to Christianity.

And in that case, surely the atheist and agnostic organization would have something better to do with their time and resources, that is actually more devoted to their cause?

My solution, of course, would be to have a representative of any religious group that students wanted to nominate come up and make some sort of prayer, dedication or whatever. A Christian priest, a Jewish rabbi, a Muslim imam, a Native elder, a Neopagan, whatever. Everybody gets a maximum of 45 seconds to do what they want, and then the ceremony continues.

Everybody, including the atheists, are free to ignore the prayers they don't feel apply to them, and the ceremony continues.

[sandorski]

JaredMilne JaredMilne:

2Cdo 2Cdo:

I'm always amazed at the atheists/agnostics who don't believe in religion or God but still go to such lengths to erase any mention or display of the same.

I'll refer to these militant types as "religiphobes" from now on.

I remember at my graduation ceremonies at the University of Alberta, we had a First Nations elder do a brief prayer to the Creator.

However, there was also a case around that time about students demanding that references to God be removed from the ceremony...

$1:

The University of Alberta's Atheists and Agnostics (A & A) society wants to take God off the program when students line up in caps and gowns to get their degrees this, reports Thaddeus M. Baklinski, LifeSiteNews.com.

Traditionally the chancellor's speech to the new graduates urges them to use their knowledge for "the glory of God and the honour of your country."

Ian Bushfield, head of the university's A & A association, objects to this and has petitioned the University of Alberta to remove the reference to God in the traditional convocation speech.

Bushfield said the reference is outdated and not reflective of recent national surveys that found about 35 per cent of Canadians under 25 do not believe in a God.

"What they are doing is basically implying that everyone who graduates from the university should be doing certain things with their degree, and this kind of charge requires a belief in something up to one-third of campus might not have," Bushfield told the Calgary Herald on Friday.

"We want an inclusive convocation where everyone feels welcome and able to participate," said Bushfield in a Canadian Press report.

Now, I have absolutely no problem at all with a Native elder come in to do a prayer. What I'm baffled by, though, is why references to the Christian God would need to be removed. What is so objectionable to Christianity that means it should be removed, but references to other types of spirituality and religion are not?

Are they implying that the elder's prayer applied only to the Aboriginal graduates, and so the rest of us don't have to worry about it applying to us? Or is it that Christianity has often been the religion of many of the ethnocultural groups that have historically had the most wealth and power? But if that's the case, then it's not so much about religion as it is having an axe to grind against some of the groups that are popularly attributed to Christianity.

And in that case, surely the atheist and agnostic organization would have something better to do with their time and resources, that is actually more devoted to their cause?

My solution, of course, would be to have a representative of any religious group that students wanted to nominate come up and make some sort of prayer, dedication or whatever. A Christian priest, a Jewish rabbi, a Muslim imam, a Native elder, a Neopagan, whatever. Everybody gets a maximum of 45 seconds to do what they want, and then the ceremony continues.

Everybody, including the atheists, are free to ignore the prayers they don't feel apply to them, and the ceremony continues.

No. There is no need for any Woo in such ceremonies. Graduations are about the Students Academic accomplishments and nothing else. Bringing a god, pyramid power, spirit guide, or anything else into it has absolutely nothing to do with the reason for the gathering.

[andyt]

sandorski sandorski:

No. There is no need for any Woo in such ceremonies.

I like it. Woo free zones.