[Canadian_Mind]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

$1:

Freedom and liberty, or death.

They didn't win freedom or liberty........but they did die. It wasn't until Solidarity came into being that Poland started to win back some of its freedom, some forty some years later.

Stuck between a rock and a hard place, the Poles chose to fight the rock. They lost, but the effort was commendable.

As for arming civilians, I like the Swedish idea of having armouries everywhere. Train your citizens how to use the weapons, but don't issue them. About a day or two before your county is overrun, hand out everything (including anti-tank munitions) and wish them good luck. A dedicated military force will trump any sort of insurgency, but there is the possibility that an insurgency can slow down or damage the military force enough that primary allied forces could launch a counter attack and drive the enemy force back. It worked out this way many times in the last century.

[fifeboy]

CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Brave but not overly bright.

The point is that the Poles would never lay down for the enemy, no matter the cost. Defend their country to the last.

It may not have been the 'bright' thing to do, but sometimes it's the only thing you can do. Freedom and liberty, or death.


-J.

[fifeboy]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

fifeboy fifeboy:

So,are you saying Poles don't have the right to own mason jars?

Hope the NDP doesn't find out about the lethality of mason jars. They'd probably want to start a mason jar registry.

Oh God, what would we do then if Nazi from Patagonia invade with retro Tiger Tanks.

[2Cdo]

fifeboy fifeboy:

2Cdo 2Cdo:

fifeboy fifeboy:

So,are you saying Poles don't have the right to own mason jars?

Hope the NDP doesn't find out about the lethality of mason jars. They'd probably want to start a mason jar registry.

Oh God, what would we do then if Nazi from Patagonia invade with retro Tiger Tanks.

Are any real Nazis even living still?

[fifeboy]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

Are any real Nazis even living still?

Just goes to show how much you know:


AND, not only did they save his brain, they saved his whole fucking head!

Don't be fooled, he is still out there.

[Regina]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Regina Regina:

You and your biggest pop gun won't stop a tank either. Nor will they do much else than piss off the driver if he can even hear it.

A Mason jar full of gasoline is often a pretty effective weapon against even the fanciest armor.

The CF knows it.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7ac_1329682532

I bet when you were playing in the sand box you were all terrified of mason jars.

[Regina]

CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Brave but not overly bright.

The point is that the Poles would never lay down for the enemy, no matter the cost. Defend their country to the last.

It may not have been the 'bright' thing to do, but sometimes it's the only thing you can do. Freedom and liberty, or death.


-J.

[Thanos]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

$1:

Freedom and liberty, or death.

They didn't win freedom or liberty........but they did die. It wasn't until Solidarity came into being that Poland started to win back some of its freedom, some forty some years later.

Stuck between a rock and a hard place, the Poles chose to fight the rock. They lost, but the effort was commendable.

As for arming civilians, I like the Swedish idea of having armouries everywhere. Train your citizens how to use the weapons, but don't issue them. About a day or two before your county is overrun, hand out everything (including anti-tank munitions) and wish them good luck. A dedicated military force will trump any sort of insurgency, but there is the possibility that an insurgency can slow down or damage the military force enough that primary allied forces could launch a counter attack and drive the enemy force back. It worked out this way many times in the last century.

That's probably the only effective way to use militia. Even in the American Revolution the militia was a supplement to the regular Continental Army that Washington built. In the Civil War the Confederates had irregulars wreaking havoc in places like Kansas and Missouri but on the main front the fighting was once again done by regulars. The Soviet and Yugoslav partisans caused lots of problems behind the lines for the Nazis but it wasn't until regular Soviet armoured units wiped out or chased the Germans out that the occupied areas were reclaimed. In Vietnam the last seven years of the war was fought almost exclusively by the regular soldiers in the NVA; the Viet Cong insurgents were used as a nuisance force and, if it's true, were deliberately wasted by the Communist command structure in Hanoi during the Tet Offensive in order to eliminate them as a potential source of trouble for the unified regime after the US forces left.

So, yeah, they're strictly a supplement to a regular military force. Thinking that Bubba and his Pabst-swilling friends are some kind of preventative of any sort to some mayhem-intending foreign aggressors remains an idea strictly for the comedy circuit.

[Canadian_Mind]

I think you are right Thanos, but that doesn't mean the militia has to be entirely discredited either. I do believe militia, insurgencies, and underground partisans played a significant role in many wars. They weren't the pieces that brought the victory, but without them the conditions wouldn't be there for the regular forces to bring victory.

[BartSimpson]

CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:

Also, being of half Polish descent, I take some offence at your statement.

-J.

I'm offended at the notion of a populace that can't defend themselves from the Russians.

[BartSimpson]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

A dedicated military force will trump any sort of insurgency

What a terribly naïve thing to say especially when history is rife with insurgencies that overcame dedicated militaries.

[BartSimpson]

Regina Regina:

I bet when you were playing in the sand box you were all terrified of mason jars.

So you think the CF are a bunch of terrified fools for instructing the troops in how to use Molotov cocktails?

[CDN_PATRIOT]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:

Also, being of half Polish descent, I take some offence at your statement.

-J.

I'm offended at the notion of a populace that can't defend themselves from the Russians.

Prove they can't defend themselves.

-J.

[BartSimpson]

CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:

Prove they can't defend themselves.

-J.

The hypocrisy in this topic is pretty stunning.

On the one hand I'm being mocked for pointing out that even the CF instructs the troops in the techniques of improvised action against armor. Then you're upset because in the face of naked Russian aggression the Polish state is still slavishly insistent on enforcing gun control and you make the case that the Poles will wage an insurgency with improvised weaponry if they have to. You acknowledge that the action will be more or less suicidal.

As to proving whether or not the average Polish citizen can defend themselves from a Russian army with improvised weaponry? Let's hope they never have to do this.

One thing that would help deter a Russian invasion is if the Polish government simply permitted law abiding Poles to arm themselves. The Russians have Chechnya as an example of what an insurgency can do to them and the thought of facing worse in Poland would do well to keep the Russians in their billets.

[fifeboy]

I'm not a historian and try to stay away from military topics because I don't know much about them, but can I ask a question? During WW2, in places like Belarus or Poland, how many German divisions were kept away from the front lines trying to deal with the Partisans. If it was significant, than they really did help in defeating the Nazi. If they were dealt with by police and local paramilitaries than perhaps not so much.