[Freakinoldguy]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Better shore patrols may have helped. The old American method was to send thugs armed with billy clubs into the bars to beat the crap out of their naval personnel wherever they are. The old Canadian method was much lower key, almost protective of the drunken hairy ass and their job was to separate them from trouble ASAP and get them into their racks without further ado. Perhaps today's buffers are tired of playing that game but it's part of their job to keep a rein on their messmates.

Better yet. How about making people responsible for their own actions rather than everyone else having to take the fall.

Another symptom of our society. Nobody's responsible for their own actions hence the communal punishments.

Back in the day the prick would have been sent to Edmonton or Valcartier to serve a couple of month sentence for his antics ashore. Now he'll go to court martial and get a reprimand and fine. Great system.

When were doing WUP's in 76 we tied up in Vancouver at Ballantyne pier for a night and we had two assholes go ashore and cause nothing but trouble. They were politely returned to the ship by the Vancouver City Police that evening. The CO was so mad he convened a Captain's table the next morning, on a Saturday, found these two reprobates guilty of conduct, assault, drunkenness and ordered them dishonorably discharged. He then contacted the Admiral who signed the papers while they were being taken by escort back to Esquimalt. Upon arrival they were taken to the BOR where every necessary piece of paper for their out routine had been signed and, they were released from the Navy by 1600 of the same day. No if's ands or but's. No lawyers no Charter, no Court Martials no, fines, no reprimands, no appeal. Just the Code of Service Discipline and an system that had a spine.

To bad that type of discipline doesn't exist anymore because if it did we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[Vamp018]

Is this RCN Captain's table like the USCG/USN Captain's Mast?? I've ran a few crows thru my mast and out the aft end like you described above. I was asking for comparison.

[Freakinoldguy]

Vamp018 Vamp018:

Is this RCN Captain's table like the USCG/USN Captain's Mast?? I've ran a few crows thru my mast and out the aft end like you described above. I was asking for comparison.

It was exactly the same thing but now the powers of the Div Chief, Cox'n, XO and CO have been pretty much coopted by the legalese types. No more asking a kid if he's rather work the weekend or be charged, no more CO's releasing shit birds, no more common sense. Now to charge someone you have to contact a lawyer and he'll tell you what and how to charge the clown.

Strangely enough when I was the Base Discip, I had to explain to the lawyers at AJAG how the military worked because they were civvies' brought in right off the streets. One time I got a frantic call from the female LCdr about a kid on McKenzie who had been found guilty of selling drugs and the Commanding Officer had mustered the ships company on the Quarterdeck so he could read the punishment warrant before he sent the little bastard to cells.

Well, long story short. I explained that it was still legal and although not widely used was still part of the system. Her reply was and I'll quote. "well, we'll have to have that changed, won't we".

Guess what. They got it changed. Apparently there's no more reading of punishment warrants on the AX and the reason. It was embarrassing which, oddly enough violated the offenders Charter Rights.

So now you can see why I despise lawyers. They fucked up a perfectly good military with their meddling and empire building and now they rule with an iron fist. Which makes me think this latest edict from the Mount was drafted by Military Lawyers and not some Senior Officer.

[Vamp018]

"oddly enough violated the offenders Charter Rights"

I guess we in the US Armed Forces are lucky. We have our own system of uniformed Military Code and Justice. Only SCOTUS can bark and they do so very rare. We do carry a few JAGS on-board, so no excuse for a military lawyer or cant find one. Swift and out is what I like as CO to those who break the laws and regs.

[Xort]

The whole military could do with wildly less drinking all around.

While in past deployments drinking was allowed for the army and air force, the Afghan mission was dry outside of theater command.

If the navy wants to pretend that every time they leave dock they are being deployed then they can go dry like everyone else.

Maybe flushing all the drunks out of the military and replacing them with people that can find coping somewhere other than at the bottom of a bottle is a good thing.

[Freakinoldguy]

Vamp018 Vamp018:

"oddly enough violated the offenders Charter Rights"

I guess we in the US Armed Forces are lucky. We have our own system of uniformed Military Code and Justice. Only SCOTUS can bark and they do so very rare. We do carry a few JAGS on-board, so no excuse for a military lawyer or cant find one. Swift and out is what I like as CO to those who break the laws and regs.

Don't get me wrong. The Canadian Military still has it's own code of service discipline to, it's just that it's been subjugated by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms which is something that was IMHO completely unnecessary, but then again I don't think the Charter was necessary or even logical either.

[Jabberwalker]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Better shore patrols may have helped. The old American method was to send thugs armed with billy clubs into the bars to beat the crap out of their naval personnel wherever they are. The old Canadian method was much lower key, almost protective of the drunken hairy ass and their job was to separate them from trouble ASAP and get them into their racks without further ado. Perhaps today's buffers are tired of playing that game but it's part of their job to keep a rein on their messmates.

Better yet. How about making people responsible for their own actions rather than everyone else having to take the fall.

Another symptom of our society. Nobody's responsible for their own actions hence the communal punishments.

Back in the day the prick would have been sent to Edmonton or Valcartier to serve a couple of month sentence for his antics ashore. Now he'll go to court martial and get a reprimand and fine. Great system.

When were doing WUP's in 76 we tied up in Vancouver at Ballantyne pier for a night and we had two assholes go ashore and cause nothing but trouble. They were politely returned to the ship by the Vancouver City Police that evening. The CO was so mad he convened a Captain's table the next morning, on a Saturday, found these two reprobates guilty of conduct, assault, drunkenness and ordered them dishonorably discharged. He then contacted the Admiral who signed the papers while they were being taken by escort back to Esquimalt. Upon arrival they were taken to the BOR where every necessary piece of paper for their out routine had been signed and, they were released from the Navy by 1600 of the same day. No if's ands or but's. No lawyers no Charter, no Court Martials no, fines, no reprimands, no appeal. Just the Code of Service Discipline and an system that had a spine.

To bad that type of discipline doesn't exist anymore because if it did we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Frankly, I don't know ho you can have a military organization without them being constrained by proper military law. If we were at war, standard Canadian law would be far from adequate and unable to deal with emergencies in the sort of time frame that would be required. The system has evolved over hundreds of years of rather deep experience.

[HyperionTheEvil]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Better shore patrols may have helped. The old American method was to send thugs armed with billy clubs into the bars to beat the crap out of their naval personnel wherever they are. The old Canadian method was much lower key, almost protective of the drunken hairy ass and their job was to separate them from trouble ASAP and get them into their racks without further ado. Perhaps today's buffers are tired of playing that game but it's part of their job to keep a rein on their messmates.

Better yet. How about making people responsible for their own actions rather than everyone else having to take the fall.

Another symptom of our society. Nobody's responsible for their own actions hence the communal punishments.

Back in the day the prick would have been sent to Edmonton or Valcartier to serve a couple of month sentence for his antics ashore. Now he'll go to court martial and get a reprimand and fine. Great system.

When were doing WUP's in 76 we tied up in Vancouver at Ballantyne pier for a night and we had two assholes go ashore and cause nothing but trouble. They were politely returned to the ship by the Vancouver City Police that evening. The CO was so mad he convened a Captain's table the next morning, on a Saturday, found these two reprobates guilty of conduct, assault, drunkenness and ordered them dishonorably discharged. He then contacted the Admiral who signed the papers while they were being taken by escort back to Esquimalt. Upon arrival they were taken to the BOR where every necessary piece of paper for their out routine had been signed and, they were released from the Navy by 1600 of the same day. No if's ands or but's. No lawyers no Charter, no Court Martials no, fines, no reprimands, no appeal. Just the Code of Service Discipline and an system that had a spine.

To bad that type of discipline doesn't exist anymore because if it did we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Well from my own experiences it has less to do with the Charter and political Correctness than it is manpower. On board DDE's there was always a duty bartender whose job was to monitor the amount of alcohol consumed, and their instructions were to err on the side of caution. On the smaller ships like the MCDV's i don't think that was the case and honestly it was stupid idea to put beer in the pop machines. And i have a sneaking suspicion that because the MCDV's are (or at least were i my time) primarily crewed bu reservists that that had a direct influence on what happened.

[Jabberwalker]

HyperionTheEvil HyperionTheEvil:

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Better shore patrols may have helped. The old American method was to send thugs armed with billy clubs into the bars to beat the crap out of their naval personnel wherever they are. The old Canadian method was much lower key, almost protective of the drunken hairy ass and their job was to separate them from trouble ASAP and get them into their racks without further ado. Perhaps today's buffers are tired of playing that game but it's part of their job to keep a rein on their messmates.

Better yet. How about making people responsible for their own actions rather than everyone else having to take the fall.

Another symptom of our society. Nobody's responsible for their own actions hence the communal punishments.

Back in the day the prick would have been sent to Edmonton or Valcartier to serve a couple of month sentence for his antics ashore. Now he'll go to court martial and get a reprimand and fine. Great system.

When were doing WUP's in 76 we tied up in Vancouver at Ballantyne pier for a night and we had two assholes go ashore and cause nothing but trouble. They were politely returned to the ship by the Vancouver City Police that evening. The CO was so mad he convened a Captain's table the next morning, on a Saturday, found these two reprobates guilty of conduct, assault, drunkenness and ordered them dishonorably discharged. He then contacted the Admiral who signed the papers while they were being taken by escort back to Esquimalt. Upon arrival they were taken to the BOR where every necessary piece of paper for their out routine had been signed and, they were released from the Navy by 1600 of the same day. No if's ands or but's. No lawyers no Charter, no Court Martials no, fines, no reprimands, no appeal. Just the Code of Service Discipline and an system that had a spine.

To bad that type of discipline doesn't exist anymore because if it did we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Well from my own experiences it has less to do with the Charter and political Correctness than it is manpower. On board DDE's there was always a duty bartender whose job was to monitor the amount of alcohol consumed, and their instructions were to err on the side of caution. On the smaller ships like the MCDV's i don't think that was the case and honestly it was stupid idea to put beer in the pop machines. And i have a sneaking suspicion that because the MCDV's are (or at least were i my time) primarily crewed bu reservists that that had a direct influence on what happened.

Beer in pop machines goes way back. I bought beer out of pop machines at Stadacona back in 1974. Forty years later, it's suddenly become a problem?

[Xort]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Beer in pop machines goes way back. I bought beer out of pop machines at Stadacona back in 1974. Forty years later, it's suddenly become a problem?

Times change and so does the acceptance of risk.

Drinking and driving was at one time not a big deal.
Smoking was once healthy.
Mass immigration a net positive.
Slavery an accepted means to an economic end.

Functional alcoholics in the military once was just part of the cost of doing business. I wouldn't care to guess on the numbers but I'd say most of the military disciplinary action deals with actions while drunk, followed closely by people addicted to non legal drugs.

To cut you off before hand just like everyone that drinks says they can keep their drinking under control, every smoker says they always get rid of their butts properly. Yet I've spent more than a few afternoons picking up butts off the ground.

[Benn]

So now they can only drink while tied up at pier? Did I read the articles about the incident wrong? I thought they said all this resulted from shoplifting and sexual misconduct while at San Diago? I assume to do this they were tied up at port. Hard to shoplift from stores while at sea. So this drinking was going on while tied up at port therefore we allow it still but ban it at sea?

[Freakinoldguy]

And how is taking away the right to have a beer at sea going to alleviate the problems of alcohol alongside? The crux of the problem is a lack of leadership and the appearance that a Senior Officer is acting decisively when in fact all he's done is reinstate group punishments which were supposedly addressed by Admiral Mainguy back in 1949.

Anyone who's interested here's the Executive Summary: Internal Review of Personal Conduct and I'd like people to note that it opens with:

$1:

The Internal Review of Personal Conduct within the Royal Canadian Navy (RCN) was stood up in July 2014 in response to a small number of RCN personnel failing to meet the Navy’s expectations for personal conduct.

http://www.navy-marine.forces.gc.ca/en/ ... eport.page

So, it seems to me that this knee jerk reaction is in response to a couple of incidents which in do not reflect the majority of the Royal Canadian Navy's actions aboard or ashore like some posters on this forum want people to believe.

The failure wasn't because of alcohol it was simply a result of human nature and if Admiral Norman thinks that stopping a sailor from having a beer while at sea will change the human nature of that same sailor when he's ashore he's more delusional than the kid who thought he wouldn't get caught drunk and shoplifting.

If the Navy is intent on stopping alcohol abuse while at sea, then all they have to do is ration beer like they used to do. Although that didn't work all that well either since Jack Tar has always been much more resourceful at circumnavigating the rules than the Senior Officers ever gave him credit for.

[raydan]

If he can't drink while at sea... it will probably be a lot worse when he's ashore.

[Freakinoldguy]

raydan raydan:

If he can't drink while at sea... it will probably be a lot worse when he's ashore.

I'll attest to the fact that the above statement is indeed fact not fiction.

When I first joined the Navy I and most of my mess mates were U/A and couldn't draw our tot or beer ration so the only relief we got was going ashore and getting completely liquored up although we never stole things we were hellions ashore and likely would have put todays sailors to shame with our antics.

The only difference between then and now is that we had leaders who were willing to punish us for our digressions and leave the rest of the ships companies who were innocent, alone.

[Freakinoldguy]

Benn Benn:

So now they can only drink while tied up at pier? Did I read the articles about the incident wrong? I thought they said all this resulted from shoplifting and sexual misconduct while at San Diago? I assume to do this they were tied up at port. Hard to shoplift from stores while at sea. So this drinking was going on while tied up at port therefore we allow it still but ban it at sea?

Nope, the guy obviously swam ashore while the ship was at anchor in Coronado Rhodes after getting all liquored up in the Jr. Ranks mess.

This decision by the Admiralty is the most idiotic one I've seen since the removing of tobacco from the ships in the 90's a genius idea by senior officers till repealed, which started a black market business that made some enterprising sailors alot of money.