[Jabberwalker]

Where do you think it comes from and how do think it gets to your home?

It is bought paid for by users, not by the benevolent Wizard of Oz as part of his Five year Plan or whatever the hell you believe it should come from.

[BeaverFever]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Where do you think it comes from and how do think it gets to your home?

It is bought paid for by users, not by the benevolent Wizard of Oz as part of his Five year Plan or whatever the hell you believe it should come from.

Don't be silly. Clearly you don't know what you're talking about. I mean, what do you think it's like a pizzaria or some other business, where some entreprenneur just opens a power plant and savvy consumers flock to buy their electicity that power plant? And somehow the electicity magically gets to their houses????

Government builds, owns and operates most of the generation, transmission and distributions infrastructure. Sometimes government will contract to a private company, but this is still work done at the order of the government and on its behalf.

Government has to plan so they know how much of the above infrastructure has to be in place.

Government has to foreacst electricity demand for every minute of every hour of every day. Each day, they issue forecasts of how much energy will be needed throughout the following day and up to the month ahead − including an energy reserve.

Government collects bids and offers from power generators for every 5-minute interval of the day, until two hours before the energy is needed. They then instruct or "dispatch" certian generators and importers based on their winning offers to provide electricity to the grid (other generators and importers are paid to be on standby).

Government has to monitor actual usage every minute of every day and arrange to shed excess supply or drop voltage if actual demand is lower than forecast or they must secure additional supply if demand is higher from a 'real time' market...clearing prices are set every five minutes

Long after all of the above happens, the user gets a bill based on their consumption. The fees charged to the user do not fully cover the cost of the above and the user has no fucking clue what power plant generated the electricity he used or how it got to his house.

[Jabberwalker]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Where do you think it comes from and how do think it gets to your home?

It is bought paid for by users, not by the benevolent Wizard of Oz as part of his Five year Plan or whatever the hell you believe it should come from.

Don't be silly. Clearly you don't know what you're talking about. I mean, what do you think it's like a pizzaria or some other business, where some entreprenneur just opens a power plant and savvy consumers flock to buy their electicity that power plant? And somehow the electicity magically gets to their houses????

Government builds, owns and operates most of the generation, transmission and distributions infrastructure. Sometimes government will contract to a private company, but this is still work done at the order of the government and on its behalf.

Government has to plan so they know how much of the above infrastructure has to be in place.

Government has to foreacst electricity demand for every minute of every hour of every day. Each day, the IESO issues forecasts of how much energy will be needed throughout the following day and up to the month ahead − including an energy reserve.

Government collects bids and offers from power generators for every 5-minute interval of the day, until two hours before the energy is needed. They then instruct or "dispatch" certian generators and importers based on their winning offers to provide electricity to the grid (other generators and importers are paid to be on standby).

Government has to monitor actual usage every minute of every day and arrange to shed excess supply or drop voltage if actual demand is lower than forecast or they must secure additional supply if demand is higher from a 'real time' market...clearing prices are set every five minutes

Long after all of the above happens, the user gets a bill based on their consumption. The fees charged to the user do not fully cover the cost of the above and the user has no fucking clue what power plant generated the electricity he used or how it got to his house.

The "government" does all of these wondrous things because people like me pay taxes and user fees. The costs are covered by people like me (and our employers) and there is no other source of funding available to them. I bloody well know that I'm paying below cost for my hydro from the utility and I am painfully aware that I'm making up the shortfall with my income and value added taxes ... and with the future of my children as a huge amount of that cost has been deferred for them to pay in the future. They build more and bigger facilities because of increased consumer demand. There is nothing else going on here. I am not living in gratitude for our government doing these things. Neither am I in awe of them. They are not benevolent gods. There are limits to what they can force me to do. I expect the civil service to do their jobs properly or get the feck out. Sorry to burst your bubble.

ps. You should consider living in a place like Cuba where the government IS a benevolent god to whom you owe your gratitude and undying devotion.

[BeaverFever]

This whole exchange is because you said government has no business planning/managing electicity supply and demand and interfering with the "free market". It sounded like the "government better keep the hell away from my medicare!" rant.

My point is that the electircity market is, has been, and always will be, a government role not a 'free market' role.

Yes, government is taxpayer funded. It's also democratically elected.

Now you acknowledge that the cost of the electrical system is due to high user demand....didn't you start this thread by complaining that government has no business trying to reduce demand and should let people waste as much as they want?? Well, which is it? You're sounding like the liberals' stereotype of the typical Canadian conservate - you want don't want to be told you're diong the wrong thing but don't want to pay the consequences for doing the wrong thing either. "How dare the government tell me not to waste electricity! How dare the government bill me for the electricity I'm wasting!"

Everyone, whether they are in government or not, is really expected to 'do their job or get the feck out' - nobody is expecting you to 'stand in awe' or 'live in gratitude' of anyone else. But neither should you take the public services you receive for granted and assume that they just appear without any great effort. We're all taxpayers. You can't have a functioning society without taxes to fund it. Median after-tax income in Canada is the highest in the world, by most measures we're among the best countries to live in...thanks in no small part to public programs run at the behest of the citizens who voted for them. Not much to complain about in my books.

So back to what is your point? You want government to let electricity demand go on unchecked, but you don't want to pay for any of the costs of supplying that demand, or have those costs past to future generations. Is that accurate?

Also, do me a favour and park the rhetoric about Cuba and communism...that has no place here.

[Public_Domain]

[Jabberwalker]

If you take more power, you should be penalized with a higher hydro bill. It really isn't complicated.

I also believe that if you smoke, you should be penalized with higher health care taxes (aka "premiums"), but that it a slightly different argument (relates to things like lead in paint, though).

[andyt]

Also, if you drive a car, sit at work all day, eat poor quality or too much food, engage in high risk sports, drink more than 1 drink a day, are often angry or anxious (FD's premiums would be thru the roof), engage in sex with multiple partners, live outside of BC..................................

[BeaverFever]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

If you take more power, you should be penalized with a higher hydro bill. It really isn't complicated.

I also believe that if you smoke, you should be penalized with higher health care taxes (aka "premiums"), but that it a slightly different argument (relates to things like lead in paint, though).

Fine, no problem with that. But it's not a panacea. Population growth alone increases demand and when you know people are using electricity ineffeciently and not from deliberate rational choice but simply due to lack of awareness. As a recent article I posted here pointed out, the most efficient and cost-effective powerplant is the one that doesn't have to be built. Conservation has a role to play.

Consumers are the least informed actors in the market - and in most cases they are very poorly informed, with most of their "information" they have being one-sided advertising and packaging. The product makers know more than the consumer. The retailers know more than the consumer. The regulators know more than the consumer. If consumers are buying 2200W vacuums even thought all the the data shows they are no more effective than 1600W vacumms, the consumer population as a whole would be the last group to know, if they ever learn it at all. People are too busy with their jobs and lives to develop expertise in every possible product they purchase.

This is no different that when governments outlawed or restricted leaded gas, leaded paint, asbestos, DDT, or any number of hamrful substances, and they routinely update things like fuel efficiency and safety standards for automobiles, among many many other things. Did the sky fall when any of those actions were taken? No. Did some claim these measures would destroy the regulated product's market and were an assault on freedom as you are? Yes.

[Xort]

I like how they plan to move to limit the power to just 900W in 5 years.

The anti human death cult of environmentalism is at fault once again. Use less, have a lower standard of living you must give up for the planet.

To hell with those people. Got a problem with electrical power use and carbon emissions? Build nuclear power plants, don't leave people with dirty homes.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

So back to what is your point? You want government to let electricity demand go on unchecked, but you don't want to pay for any of the costs of supplying that demand, or have those costs past to future generations. Is that accurate?

Higher energy use is a direct predictor of standard of living. Build more power plants. Build more nuclear power plants. Build LFTR nuclear power plants.

Don't tell people to do with less. Charge a market rate, don't subsidize green tech that at a fundamental level can't meet grid demands.

[BeaverFever]

$1:

Build nuclear power plants

But wait, nuclear power plants are enormously costly to build and maintian. Of all the sources of electricity, it has the highest captial costs by far. We've already established that you people don't want to pay for that right? Also, nuclear is not a magic fix - we still haven't figured out how to dispose of the waste and we're running out of places where we can bury it safely.

$1:

Higher energy use is a direct predictor of standard of living.

Umm no its not. It is not "direct" (which be a meaure of actual living standards, not indirect factors). Nor is it really relevant: are you suggesting that some guy driving a 20-year old broken down clunker that gets 12 miles per gallon has a better standard of living than someone in a brand new Mercedes who gets 25 mpg, based on the fact that the clunker is using more energy?

$1:

Don't tell people to do with less.

I don't think people are being told to do with less any more than imposing fuel efficiency standards on cars (which has been the case since 1970's) is telling people to do more with less.

$1:

Charge a market rate

Just what do you think the electricity "market rate" is, when that rate is dependent on goernment policy decisions (e.g. transmission infrastructure, etc.). I assume you're not asking for the rates on the hydro bill to also include the costs of the Nuclear plants you want? Look at everyon'es shit fit when the Ontairo Hydro 'debt retirement charge' started showing up on their bills.

$1:

don't subsidize green tech that at a fundamental level can't meet grid demands.

Again, nuclear, hydro, virtually every power source is subsidized an no one power source meets all of the grid's demands. Also, you'd be surprised to learn that most of the consumer goods you enjoy today and the materials they are made of came about as the result of government subsidies - past or present. That includes the internet, fossil fules, plastics and petrochemicals, pharmaceutals, aircraft, etc. It's a very very long list.

[andyt]

Again, setting a price for electricity that encourages conservation will do the same thing, without all the minutiae of regulations and enforcers of those regulations. Same for carbon energy. Just price it at its true cost, including environmental, problem solved.

[BeaverFever]

andyt andyt:

Again, setting a price for electricity that encourages conservation will do the same thing, without all the minutiae of regulations and enforcers of those regulations. Same for carbon energy. Just price it at its true cost, including environmental, problem solved.

We already have that. The average home uses 1000KW so there is one price for homes who use up to that amount and a higher price for homes that use more. Still they bitch.

So then we came out with smart metres which charge a lower rate if users shift their consumption to off-peak hours. They said "how dare the government tell me when I can and can't use electricity". On top that, they didn't change their habbits so they got billed the higher rate and had another bitch-fest.

You can't win with these people. They take their services for granted and expect to pay for nothing. Everyone's climbing up on the cross to claim that they give so much and receive so little in return, and they'd all be millionaries living in the lap of luxury if only the government hadn't robbed them blind.

And it's not just on public services. I've consulted on projects for employers that consistently show most employees in the company overrate themselves, claiming their job as being 'significantly' more difficult than their peers at the same level and that think they work 'significantly' harder than their peers. They also massively underestimate the cost of the benefits they receive - I mean, companies where average employee usage is costong $2,500 per year and average employee thinks they're only using $200 per year. Even though you would think this would be fairly obvious, since they would probably be able to remember using more than that amount, have receipts, and also receive statements from the insurer when the calim is paid - they don't absorb that info...their preconceptions seem to always prevail. And...the Non-Union employees are worse than the Union, even thought the Non-Union have significantly higher education.

Everyone's got 'martyr syndrome', it's a hallmark of our culture.

[Jabberwalker]

... so the Commissars step in and try to regulate the market. They work for us, not the other way around.

Do svidaniya, Comrade.

[andyt]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

andyt andyt:

Again, setting a price for electricity that encourages conservation will do the same thing, without all the minutiae of regulations and enforcers of those regulations. Same for carbon energy. Just price it at its true cost, including environmental, problem solved.

We already have that. The average home uses 1000KW so there is one price for homes who use up to that amount and a higher price for homes that use more. Still they bitch.

So then we came out with smart metres which charge a lower rate if users shift their consumption to off-peak hours. They said "how dare the government tell me when I can and can't use electricity". On top that, they didn't change their habbits so they got billed the higher rate and had another bitch-fest.

You can't win with these people. They take their services for granted and expect to pay for nothing. Everyone's climbing up on the cross to claim that they give so much and receive so little in return, and they'd all be millionaries living in the lap of luxury if only the government hadn't robbed them blind.

And it's not just on public services. I've consulted on projects for employers that consistently show most employees in the company overrate themselves, claiming their job as being 'significantly' more difficult than their peers at the same level and that think they work 'significantly' harder than their peers. They also massively underestimate the cost of the benefits they receive - I mean, companies where average employee usage is costong $2,500 per year and average employee thinks they're only using $200 per year. Even though you would think this would be fairly obvious, since they would probably be able to remember using more than that amount, have receipts, and also receive statements from the insurer when the calim is paid - they don't absorb that info...their preconceptions seem to always prevail. And...the Non-Union employees are worse than the Union, even thought the Non-Union have significantly higher education.

Everyone's got 'martyr syndrome', it's a hallmark of our culture.

I know. No reason for these sorts of silly regulations that the EU loves. All it does is create ponderous bureaucracies. As you can see on this thread, people bitch about those regs just as much, so why not take actions that make sense and are efficient.

[BeaverFever]

Markets have always been regulated, everywhere in the world. Don't like it? Move to Somalia, probably the only place where it isn't.

And since you're post just rely on empty hot air and rhetoric, without any type of facts, logical argument, or intelligent thought just goes to prove my point. Par for the course with the "wisdom of the crowd" folks. You must be Tea Party member.