[Zipperfish]

BRAH BRAH:

The only positive that could come from this is it unites Iraq's neighbors to get together and decimate Isis before it's to late. This also brings up the question was the West backing the wrong side in the Syrian civil war?

The problem isn't that they were backing the wrong side, the problem is that there is no right side.

[ShepherdsDog]

-

[ShepherdsDog]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

BRAH BRAH:

The only positive that could come from this is it unites Iraq's neighbors to get together and decimate Isis before it's to late. This also brings up the question was the West backing the wrong side in the Syrian civil war?

The problem isn't that they were backing the wrong side, the problem is that there is no right side.

We have to work with the secular rulers, as there is more chance of real progress being made with them than there will be with those religious freaks who are stuck in the 7th century. The same Sand Bandits that Assad is fighting also view us as the enemy......a foolish enemy that is arming them. We are weaving our own rope by assisting these evil fucks.

[xerxes]

It's ironic in some ways, that on the 100th anniversary of the start of WW1, that the aftermath of that war is violently being undone these days in both Iraq and Syria.

[BartSimpson]

xerxes xerxes:

It's ironic in some ways, that on the 100th anniversary of the start of WW1, that the aftermath of that war is violently being undone these days in both Iraq and Syria.

And, IMHO, it's a good thing.

Imposing artificial nationhood on these people was absurd from the outset and it could only be maintained by the brute force of a European colonial power or a strongman like Saddam Hussein.

While some of the new powers will likely lurch towards fundamentalism others, like the Kurds, will move towards the future.

Whatever they do I think it's time to let them find their own way. Keep Russia, China, Europe, and the US out of it and let the Arabs determine their own fates - be it good or bad.

[andyt]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Whatever they do I think it's time to let them find their own way. Keep Russia, China, Europe, and the US out of it and let the Arabs determine their own fates - be it good or bad.

Agreed. Maybe if they're busy fighting each other they won't have time to go after us. We should quit trying to run things in that region. It doesn't work and just costs us lives and treasure. If a country starts supporting jihadis to send over here, attack that country, but don't try to build some ideal state out of it. Of course, we never did that with Pstan or SA, or Iran for that matter. Just Iraq, which actually wasn't doing that, was just an easy "victory". When I say we, I mean y'all of course. Let's send GWB over there as ambassador to help things out.

[xerxes]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

xerxes xerxes:

It's ironic in some ways, that on the 100th anniversary of the start of WW1, that the aftermath of that war is violently being undone these days in both Iraq and Syria.

And, IMHO, it's a good thing.

Imposing artificial nationhood on these people was absurd from the outset and it could only be maintained by the brute force of a European colonial power or a strongman like Saddam Hussein.

While some of the new powers will likely lurch towards fundamentalism others, like the Kurds, will move towards the future.

Whatever they do I think it's time to let them find their own way. Keep Russia, China, Europe, and the US out of it and let the Arabs determine their own fates - be it good or bad.

I tend to agree as well but it's going to cost a lot of blood to sort that mess out. How long did it take for the Catholics and Protestants to stop killing each other over who worshiped God the right way?

[BRAH]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

BRAH BRAH:

The only positive that could come from this is it unites Iraq's neighbors to get together and decimate Isis before it's to late. This also brings up the question was the West backing the wrong side in the Syrian civil war?

The problem isn't that they were backing the wrong side, the problem is that there is no right side.

That's a hard choice to make and a position I wouldn't want to be in.

[BRAH]

xerxes xerxes:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

xerxes xerxes:

It's ironic in some ways, that on the 100th anniversary of the start of WW1, that the aftermath of that war is violently being undone these days in both Iraq and Syria.

And, IMHO, it's a good thing.

Imposing artificial nationhood on these people was absurd from the outset and it could only be maintained by the brute force of a European colonial power or a strongman like Saddam Hussein.

While some of the new powers will likely lurch towards fundamentalism others, like the Kurds, will move towards the future.

Whatever they do I think it's time to let them find their own way. Keep Russia, China, Europe, and the US out of it and let the Arabs determine their own fates - be it good or bad.

I tend to agree as well but it's going to cost a lot of blood to sort that mess out. How long did it take for the Catholics and Protestants to stop killing each other over who worshiped God the right way?

I was kind if thinking the same thing, it seems so similar to what the Catholics and Protestants went through. No matter how honest the good intentions might have been for Iraq when it comes to religion everything takes a back seat.

[xerxes]

You call find the links...But how sad was the Iraqi army's cowardice? An under-strength battalion, 800 men, was enough to send 30,000 "men" running for their lives.

[andyt]

Because they don't actually believe in Iraq. It's all about clan and religious loyalty. What kept it together was Hussein, and he got his ass handed to him by the Persians, who do believe in Iran, not necessarily the Ayatollahs. Same with South Vietnam - fighting for the corrupt scum running the country just didn't seem worth it, against a motivated enemy. They were all vietnamese. You have to ask yourself why the Viet Cong and NVA were so dedicated while the ARVN wasn't? There's a good movie about a US soldier who figured it out, but they wouldn't listen to him. "A bright shining lie."

[Thanos]

In their defense, anyone who would give up their life for the corrupt hacks in the Maliki government is probably an idiot. All those guys dropping their guns had zero reason to fight for those assholes in Baghdad, the exact same way all those guys in south Vietnam in 1975 had zero reason to fight for those assholes who were ruling in Saigon. Iraq is a secular sewer that's made no progress at all in developing some kind of respectable federal government. Maliki and his Shia punks do whatever they can to screw over the Sunnis, who then flock to the religious radicals in response. And the Kurds are practically running their own separate state already and want nothing at all to do with the other major ethnic, political, and religious groups. It's a total schmozz, and there is literally no fix for it anywhere. Too much malice, too much corruption, and far too much interference from outside agents.

Pop culture comparison? "Yeah, I don't mind fighting for my home, but I'll be damned if I go get killed for some crazy bitch like Cersei Lannister".

[andyt]

Agreed except you have to go back a lot further than 1975 in Nam. Well over 10 years back.

[Thanos]

A lot of the ARVN units that were lucky enough to have better officers actually fought quite well, even after the US withdrawal began in 1973. Unfortunately there were too few men of that quality. Too many were connected to the corruption in Saigon, or were independent criminals using their positions to ship heroin to the US, or were just going to sit where they were and do literally nothing just to avoid aggravating the Communists that they knew were going to win anyway. There probably was some small window of opportunity open for the US to build a proper government in South Vietnam but the time was too short, and the moment was easily over by the time the Tet Offensive hit in 1968. The North Vietnamese were literally relentless and would have won eventually, no matter what kind of government the Americans had built in the South.

[commanderkai]

Well, on the positive side, I hope the Kurds take everything they want from this mess.