[westmanguy]

Tolls piss people off for sure. But gas taxes are no longer effective. Car models are much more energy efficient. I don't know why we just can't do away with the fuel excise taxes and just add it as a general licensing surcharge.

[DanSC]

The gas tax is analogous to a toll/fee because if you operate your vehicle off public roads, you don't have to pay the tax.

[westmanguy]

How would that be? That gas tax is charged at the pumps, no? So even if you drive off of public roads, you still need to fill up at a gas station...

[bootlegga]

DanSC DanSC:

The gas tax is analogous to a toll/fee because if you operate your vehicle off public roads, you don't have to pay the tax.

You pay gas taxes no matter where you drive your car...but you only pay tolls on toll roads. Hence one is a user fee and the other a tax.

It may seem like semantics, but it isn't.

$1:

When someone chooses to use a government service and must pay for it, he's paying a user fee. Furthermore, what he pays should cover the cost of the service he's receiving; if it also pays for something he isn't getting or doesn't want, then he's paying both a user fee and a tax. Taxes differ from user fees in that paying them isn't a matter of choice and what you pay is not tied to what you get.

http://www.mackinac.org/190

$1:

Smith v. Turner, 48 U.S. 283, 403 (1849); Norris v. Boston, 48 U.S. 283 (1849). These cases reflect an exclusivity view of Congress's interstate commerce regulatory powers, which has been repudiated. See Southern Pac. Co. v. Arizona, 325 U.S. 761, 766-767 (1945). Smith v. Turner stated in dictum that even the United States could be made to pay a toll for use of state roads because the toll was not a tax but a compensation for the advantage of using the improvement.

http://www.taxanalysts.com/www/features ... enDocument

[bootlegga]

westmanguy westmanguy:

Tolls piss people off for sure. But gas taxes are no longer effective. Car models are much more energy efficient. I don't know why we just can't do away with the fuel excise taxes and just add it as a general licensing surcharge.

You need to visit Albeta - every third person still drives a pick-up or SUV, so they are still effective here, but I agree it's probably not as effective as it used to be in places dominated by Prius' and Smart Cars.

[BartSimpson]

DanSC DanSC:

The gas tax is analogous to a toll/fee because if you operate your vehicle off public roads, you don't have to pay the tax.

Only in certain states and only if you purchase fuel that usually has a unique color to it and then that fuel can only be used in an unlicensed vehicle like a farm truck, tractor, or etc. that will not be driven on a public road.

[peck420]

Fuel efficient cars (Prius's, Smart Cars, etc) reduce road wear more then fuel consumption, so the government is actually making more money off of them than an SUV (for example).

[DanSC]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DanSC DanSC:

The gas tax is analogous to a toll/fee because if you operate your vehicle off public roads, you don't have to pay the tax.

Only in certain states and only if you purchase fuel that usually has a unique color to it and then that fuel can only be used in an unlicensed vehicle like a farm truck, tractor, or etc. that will not be driven on a public road.

Bingo. I'm guessing bootlegga has never purchased fuel from a fuel station that served rural communities.

[bootlegga]

DanSC DanSC:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DanSC DanSC:

The gas tax is analogous to a toll/fee because if you operate your vehicle off public roads, you don't have to pay the tax.

Only in certain states and only if you purchase fuel that usually has a unique color to it and then that fuel can only be used in an unlicensed vehicle like a farm truck, tractor, or etc. that will not be driven on a public road.

Bingo. I'm guessing bootlegga has never purchased fuel from a fuel station that served rural communities.

Oh, I know about 'purple gas'. I don't know about the States, but here in Alberta, only those with special permits can buy it.

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/general/pro ... ll/pgmsrv9

As such, the vast majority of the population can't buy it (about 83% of Albertans live in urban areas), so it's not very relevant to this discussion. Urbanization is fairly similar in the US IIRC. Most drivers however are forced to buy regular gas...which has gas taxes added into the price.

Yeah, why bother discussing the 150+ million or so who do pay gas taxes when you can talk about maybe a million who can get farm gas...

[DanSC]

To illustrate that the gas tax is a tax for using gas while driving on public roads, not a tax on gas.

[bootlegga]

DanSC DanSC:

To illustrate that the gas tax is a tax for using gas while driving on public roads, not a tax on gas.

No, most reasonable people would call farm gas a subsidy or a tax rebate, hence negating your 'gas tax is a user fee' argument. In fact, most tax experts (I cited two) also say as much.

Still, I can't stop you from being deliberately obtuse can I Warden Norton?

[GreenTiger]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

This is easy: The states should end the Federal Fuel tax if it's no longer going to be used to pay for the upkeep of the roads. Because that's what's really at stake here is that an ever-increasing amount of fuel tax funds have been diverted to the General Fund to pay for other things. And now the Obama Administration needs every penny it can get to paper over the cluster f*ck of Obamacare.

Oregon is blaming their failure on a coding issue:

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/oregon-nevad ... -exchanges

Yet the truth is that the people who have to sign up for Obamacare so they can subsidize all the people who are getting Obamacare for 'free' are refusing to sign up. The system is going to collapse because there's not enough money to fund ongoing operations.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/ ... d-n1805244

Somewhere along the line I expect there will be a proposal for a US version of the GST (Gouge and Screw TAx).

[westmanguy]

bootlegga bootlegga:

westmanguy westmanguy:

Tolls piss people off for sure. But gas taxes are no longer effective. Car models are much more energy efficient. I don't know why we just can't do away with the fuel excise taxes and just add it as a general licensing surcharge.

You need to visit Albeta - every third person still drives a pick-up or SUV, so they are still effective here, but I agree it's probably not as effective as it used to be in places dominated by Prius' and Smart Cars.

True. I am thinking of where I am in the Lower Mainland of BC. The pick up trucks and SUVs I was used to seeing in the prairies aren't as common here. And as such fuel taxes are an epic failure at funding our TransLink/transit system.

Cars are more fuel efficient and add in the thousands of people with a Nexus pass who pop to the states once a week to fill up in Blaine/Bellingham, and funding transit/roads through excise taxes becomes a poor policy choice.

[DanSC]

bootlegga bootlegga:

DanSC DanSC:

To illustrate that the gas tax is a tax for using gas while driving on public roads, not a tax on gas.

No, most reasonable people would call farm gas a subsidy or a tax rebate, hence negating your 'gas tax is a user fee' argument. In fact, most tax experts (I cited two) also say as much.

Still, I can't stop you from being deliberately obtuse can I Warden Norton?

That's like calling no sales tax on groceries a subsidy or tax rebate.

[DanSC]

GreenTiger GreenTiger:

Somewhere along the line I expect there will be a proposal for a US version of the GST (Gouge and Screw TAx).

Hermain Cain tried proposing that.