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[Public_Domain]

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[saturn_656]

I read quite a wordy paper on the viability of full self government for FN's not too long ago. Have to see if I can track it down. Long story short they are far too dispersed as a whole and individual nations are too low in population for it to be workable, among other reasons. Greater inclusion (through several different measures) in the current governing structure was proposed as a realistic solution.

Anyone else find it ironic that if Mr. Canada had a time machine, he'd go and abort the country?

[ShepherdsDog]

Public_Domain Public_Domain:

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Mr C work .....nah, he's the white version of the native stereotype.

Have one, but it's not a PhD position and I don't have 28 years experience or whatever so, same amount of respect. It is an interesting game to play...

But speaking of stereotypes, what ones are there of white people? I suppose that they're generally racists, right? I guess you fit a stereotype too, cool!

Pointing out that your under educated and unemployed lazy ass has made yet another idiotic comment is racist? OK.... Then most by that definition most people who've come into contact with you are racists. It happens every time you wax pseudo philosophical from your mom's cave Slackman. You discussing and posing solutions for real world issues is like a blindman describing and painting a rainbow.

[andyt]

PD, you've certainly made some valid criticisms. Your idea of auditing our various governments more closely is right on. We've seen how our politicians are just as entitled and willing to take taxpayer money as any chief. And the Portland Hotel fiasco shows that even goes to 2nd nations people taking money meant for the poor. A black eye on the left, since the right is honest enough to say "I'm taking what I can get away with, and fuck the poor anyway."

But you haven't offered any solutions either. I do think natives are going to have to assimilate to the larger society. Until they work for their money and pay taxes on it like the rest of us, they'll basically just be welfare cases, except with way better benefits. Yes, some reserves are financially viable because they're close to major centres, but even there on most of them natives don't pay taxes and still receive all sorts of federal government money. Who else in Canada except natives has houses built for them?

The road there won't be easy, as you point out. You can't just force them off reserves at the barrel of a gun and send all those disaster cases to live in urban areas instead. It would have to be a long, slow process of rehabilitation, with maybe their children's children starting to see some real progress. But we do need to make the changes that would lead to this scenario, or we just keep repeating these sorts of stories over and over. Just in the news is another FN that's being flooded out. Unfortunately neither side has the will for this. FN's think they can just keep squeezing more money out of us, we don't want to spend the money it would take to truly help them integrate. So we just do this dance over and over.

There are however, many natives who have integrated, many don't make any fuss about it. Maybe if we get a critical mass of them, and they would be more willing to help out their bretheren (how eager are 2nd nation people to help out their bretheren - it's usually "I'm alright jack, i'm in the life boat.") we could make progress.

[ShepherdsDog]

Most of those natives that integrate have left the reserves, never to return, because they want to create a life for themselves and their kids. As bad as some get treated in the real world, it's a step up from the realities of life in the Bannock Republics.

Where we are, there are two major factions. There's the Chief and council with their hangers-on who want to want to maintain the status quo...reliance on whitey and corruption. Then, there is a smaller group, comprised mostly of Metis, who've held jobs in PA, Saskatoon, Alberta, with SaskPower or at the local mine and with Forestry. They want to initiate changes that would create a community with a future. They want to see Saskpower create fish ladders to reintroduce sturgeon. They'd like to see cabin rentals, a well stocked store(the previous manager had a bakery and butcher shop, and most importantly, established CREDIT before the band took over) that the local band doesn't use as an ATM. They also want to see apprenticeship programs for local in demand trades. Mechanics, carpentry, electrical, plumbing etc. They want to see local tradesmen in the community, rather than outsiders coming into fix everything. Their vision is to create a livable community that people want to stay in and raise their families.

The local rec centre here had four sheets of ice for curling, an indoor skating rink and a gym before the rez rats decided to destroy the building for shits and giggles. Because they were the offspring of the Chief and some friends, nothing came of charges or restitution. Also, because the rec centre was located on crown-land where the whites and Metis/non Status lived, the funds to repair the damage have to come from their pockets.

[commanderkai]

Public_Domain Public_Domain:

commanderkai commanderkai:

Is that what's left of Aboriginal culture? See, I thought it was the oral traditions, their history, their food, their faith, their dress, their ceremonies, and their blood.

What will keep this from being a casualty of the proposed "restabilzation" of these communities?

The people who want to keep their culture alive? These corrupt Aboriginal tribal councils certainly are not.

$1:

The proposed ideas so far all seem to rut out the entire idea of self-government in favour of outside rule. I have no problem with rutting out "problem elements". But it seems that, for the most part, what is wanted is for the "opportunity of corruption" to be taken, as there is this assumption that specifically Native people are more corruptible than white people are.

Considering a large number of these self-governing tribes are abject failures, putting a lot of innocent people into poverty when there is more than enough money to allow them to live relatively comfortably, then yeah, people see that allowing these corrupt tribal councils to keep operating as a problem. The tribal councils that don't operate their communities like if they were the mob are not the organizations we care about here. It's the hilariously corrupt ones like this one here.

$1:

What I'm saying is that this zeal for accountability isn't applied to our own governments. I wouldn't mind if we got rid of our governments, that's fine by me. Or being able to realistically have the expectation for administrators to be accountable to all expectations of the electorate. That would be fanfuckingtastic. Not going to happen.

I'm sorry, what? Laval, Quebec is a beautiful example of how corrupt non-Aboriginal governments are actually brought down from corruption scandals. Non-Aboriginal politicians are brought down due to exposed corruption quite regularly. It annoys us all, sure, but they are prosecuted and fined/jailed for their actions. These tribal leaders steal and pillage their own communities with absolutely no consequences.

$1:

So they are incapable of governing themselves, the internet white men have declared. Too much of a chance that some might squirrel some money away. Whitey is a good teacher. Thank god that stuff never happens in our societies, thank god all corrupted deadbeat administrators end up severely punished here, thank god no one is threatening to force our government out to be replaced by some other more "trustable" clan of corruptible human beings.

Cut down the cries of racism, Mr. "Oh these corrupt tribal leaders are the bastion of Aboriginal culture! Without them, Aboriginal culture is DOOMED!"

FieryVulpine is right. Racism of lowered expectations. From what you said, it truly comes off as these Aboriginal leaders should not be expected to not be corrupt and thieving, and that the residents of the various tribal communities would be lost sheep without them.

$1:

What, I ask, will allow their oral traditions, their history, their food, their faith, their dress, and their ceremonies to even have a slivers chance of survival if we remove their institutions and replace them with white-run ones?

What are the chances now that these same "institutions" just sold off 50 or so homes, with all those possessions inside (no doubt containing various Aborignal cultural and religious objects of all shapes and sizes), without any permission from the actual owners of those homes?

Did you even click the link before going into this bullshit? You keep acting like these leaders are somehow acting in the best interests of preserving Aboriginal culture. They're not.

$1:

Or follow freakingoldguy's main plan which would effectively assimilate them entirely? Why pretend to care if those things are casualties? It isn't the Native people that is cared about, it's only the tax dollars that matter. And the best decision for tax dollars, in the minds of you individuals, is to disband and disrupt. Not just punish illegitimate governments, but actually either end or replace the ability, or forcefully repatriate them in an assimilation program. What part of that will help maintain their culture?

Because this is somehow preserving their culture? Seriously, where is the preservation of Aboriginal culture in this story? Dozens of families are living in hotel rooms to this day, 3 years on. Their possessions, including many that directly linked to their culture and history, were sold by their own leaders without their permission, and they won't ever see them again. Most probably was just furniture, but no doubt there were photo albums, ceremonial garb, and other historical artifacts mixed in there.

One resident is staying in his infested, condemned home because, at any moment, his own leaders might try to fucking drive his house away and steal everything he owns.

How is this preserving Aboriginal culture? Assimilation might be a mean sounding word, but guess what? Generations of immigrants, white, black, Hispanic, Asian, and Arab have come to this country and preserved their culture while prospering in Canadian society. My Sicilian grandparents raised their kids Catholic, taught them Sicilian, and kept family history and tradition alive without a single bit of assistance from the government. Hell, they did this in Quebec, where the Quebec government was trying to do their "Fuck non-French Canadians" policy of limiting English education access.

Right now, we segregate the Aboriginal communities from Canada, and gee, their culture seems mighty preserved. Poverty, crime, health issues, and corruption are all wonderful pillars of Aboriginal society from yesteryear. Man, I remember reading how Aboriginal tribal leaders 400 years ago robbed their own people blind. These tribal leaders are really keeping up with their ancestors. (this was sarcasm)

$1:

If I had absolute power and a time machine, I'd do my best to prevent Europeans from making it here for at least a few more hundred years...

Fantastic. We should have came 300 years later, when we had a bigger technology gap and could have truly fucked them over. Horses, Gatling guns, breech loading rifles, advanced cannons and other siege equipment, the industrial revolution? You do realize the same problems the Aboriginals had in the 16th century would be the same, just more pronounced, in the 18 or 19th century.

[martin14]

+5 if I could CK.

[ShepherdsDog]

Except for the tribes in the south and the coastal fringes, most native societies didn't progress past the Mesolithic phase. Thirty thousand years and hardly any progress. How the hell would a few centuries have changed anything? Typical of the person who proposed the idea.....no thought went into his little wet dream. CK nailed it, giving me hope that not all of the up and coming generation aren't total layabout tards who possess the intellectual depth of a piece of onion skin

[Gunnair]

commanderkai commanderkai:

Public_Domain Public_Domain:

commanderkai commanderkai:

Is that what's left of Aboriginal culture? See, I thought it was the oral traditions, their history, their food, their faith, their dress, their ceremonies, and their blood.

What will keep this from being a casualty of the proposed "restabilzation" of these communities?

The people who want to keep their culture alive? These corrupt Aboriginal tribal councils certainly are not.

$1:

The proposed ideas so far all seem to rut out the entire idea of self-government in favour of outside rule. I have no problem with rutting out "problem elements". But it seems that, for the most part, what is wanted is for the "opportunity of corruption" to be taken, as there is this assumption that specifically Native people are more corruptible than white people are.

Considering a large number of these self-governing tribes are abject failures, putting a lot of innocent people into poverty when there is more than enough money to allow them to live relatively comfortably, then yeah, people see that allowing these corrupt tribal councils to keep operating as a problem. The tribal councils that don't operate their communities like if they were the mob are not the organizations we care about here. It's the hilariously corrupt ones like this one here.

$1:

What I'm saying is that this zeal for accountability isn't applied to our own governments. I wouldn't mind if we got rid of our governments, that's fine by me. Or being able to realistically have the expectation for administrators to be accountable to all expectations of the electorate. That would be fanfuckingtastic. Not going to happen.

I'm sorry, what? Laval, Quebec is a beautiful example of how corrupt non-Aboriginal governments are actually brought down from corruption scandals. Non-Aboriginal politicians are brought down due to exposed corruption quite regularly. It annoys us all, sure, but they are prosecuted and fined/jailed for their actions. These tribal leaders steal and pillage their own communities with absolutely no consequences.

$1:

So they are incapable of governing themselves, the internet white men have declared. Too much of a chance that some might squirrel some money away. Whitey is a good teacher. Thank god that stuff never happens in our societies, thank god all corrupted deadbeat administrators end up severely punished here, thank god no one is threatening to force our government out to be replaced by some other more "trustable" clan of corruptible human beings.

Cut down the cries of racism, Mr. "Oh these corrupt tribal leaders are the bastion of Aboriginal culture! Without them, Aboriginal culture is DOOMED!"

FieryVulpine is right. Racism of lowered expectations. From what you said, it truly comes off as these Aboriginal leaders should not be expected to not be corrupt and thieving, and that the residents of the various tribal communities would be lost sheep without them.

$1:

What, I ask, will allow their oral traditions, their history, their food, their faith, their dress, and their ceremonies to even have a slivers chance of survival if we remove their institutions and replace them with white-run ones?

What are the chances now that these same "institutions" just sold off 50 or so homes, with all those possessions inside (no doubt containing various Aborignal cultural and religious objects of all shapes and sizes), without any permission from the actual owners of those homes?

Did you even click the link before going into this bullshit? You keep acting like these leaders are somehow acting in the best interests of preserving Aboriginal culture. They're not.

$1:

Or follow freakingoldguy's main plan which would effectively assimilate them entirely? Why pretend to care if those things are casualties? It isn't the Native people that is cared about, it's only the tax dollars that matter. And the best decision for tax dollars, in the minds of you individuals, is to disband and disrupt. Not just punish illegitimate governments, but actually either end or replace the ability, or forcefully repatriate them in an assimilation program. What part of that will help maintain their culture?

Because this is somehow preserving their culture? Seriously, where is the preservation of Aboriginal culture in this story? Dozens of families are living in hotel rooms to this day, 3 years on. Their possessions, including many that directly linked to their culture and history, were sold by their own leaders without their permission, and they won't ever see them again. Most probably was just furniture, but no doubt there were photo albums, ceremonial garb, and other historical artifacts mixed in there.

One resident is staying in his infested, condemned home because, at any moment, his own leaders might try to fucking drive his house away and steal everything he owns.

How is this preserving Aboriginal culture? Assimilation might be a mean sounding word, but guess what? Generations of immigrants, white, black, Hispanic, Asian, and Arab have come to this country and preserved their culture while prospering in Canadian society. My Sicilian grandparents raised their kids Catholic, taught them Sicilian, and kept family history and tradition alive without a single bit of assistance from the government. Hell, they did this in Quebec, where the Quebec government was trying to do their "Fuck non-French Canadians" policy of limiting English education access.

Right now, we segregate the Aboriginal communities from Canada, and gee, their culture seems mighty preserved. Poverty, crime, health issues, and corruption are all wonderful pillars of Aboriginal society from yesteryear. Man, I remember reading how Aboriginal tribal leaders 400 years ago robbed their own people blind. These tribal leaders are really keeping up with their ancestors. (this was sarcasm)

$1:

If I had absolute power and a time machine, I'd do my best to prevent Europeans from making it here for at least a few more hundred years...

Fantastic. We should have came 300 years later, when we had a bigger technology gap and could have truly fucked them over. Horses, Gatling guns, breech loading rifles, advanced cannons and other siege equipment, the industrial revolution? You do realize the same problems the Aboriginals had in the 16th century would be the same, just more pronounced, in the 18 or 19th century.

A fair and measured reply.

PD, do a pause..2..3 before pumping out an emotive response and have a hard look at this post. CK makes some excellent points. What native leadership is doing now - the abandonment of their people in favour of the cash cow and power of the federal government is hardly knew in history. Take a peak at Scottish history and the abdication of responsibilities to its people in favour of English money. That how many of us came to Canada and the US, by the way. Move or die or poverty in the industrial slums of Glasgow and Edinburgh.

The noble savage routine is very old hat. Ascribing some kind of mystical nobility to these people is as racist as suggesting they are some kind of social parasite.

Right now, they are what we have made them and what they have allowed themselves to be made into - both by Europeans and their native leadership.

[andyt]

Let's not cast all Native leadership with the same stone. Chief Louie is a shining example of good leadership - probably better than a lot of 2nd nations leaders. I still think what he's doing is racist, since it's based on racial identification, but at least he has a viable model of how a reserve can function in modern society without sucking too much on the govt teat or all the money going to the leadership. The Tsawwassen seem to be doing pretty well, and the Nisga. The Musqueam and other local bands seem to have embraced co-operation instead of whining, where they just bought BC land (bought at fair market value) in co-operation with the Aquilinis (who got their start being slumlords, lots of complaints against the dad when he was the landlord). While, as I say, I think this model is racist, it at least seems to be moving these people forward and doing more than just complaining they don't get enough money from the whiteman.

[Gunnair]

andyt andyt:

Let's not cast all Native leadership with the same stone. Chief Louie is a shining example of good leadership - probably better than a lot of 2nd nations leaders. I still think what he's doing is racist, since it's based on racial identification, but at least he has a viable model of how a reserve can function in modern society without sucking too much on the govt teat or all the money going to the leadership. The Tsawwassen seem to be doing pretty well, and the Nisga. The Musqueam and other local bands seem to have embraced co-operation instead of whining, where they just bought BC land (bought at fair market value) in co-operation with the Aquilinis (who got their start being slumlords, lots of complaints against the dad when he was the landlord). While, as I say, I think this model is racist, it at least seems to be moving these people forward and doing more than just complaining they don't get enough money from the whiteman.

Of course there will be exceptions, however, I think it is at least safe to say that there appears to be a preponderance of corruption that suggests a very hard look needs to be taken to find out how widespread and how common it is.

That being said, those functioning reserves are in areas where you would expect them to do well. Take the Tsawwassen band and put them out in northern Ontario, and I bet we see a change.

[andyt]

I agree with PD that all governments could do with much better oversight. The Portland Hotel scandal was a real eye opener. How much money is the govt shoveling out without knowing how it's spent? How much does the govt itself spend ineffectively. Look at the Kwantlen college thing, where they talked about paying the president 100k more than allowed under the guidelines by taking money from a scholarship fund, and paying people for various "consulting services." Sure, big inquiry into corruption in Quebec - how much you want to bet that it's business as usual afterward. I think we're just more likely to hear about Native corruption because it makes the govt sound like it's doing something, rather than corruption within govt itself. So let's have long hard looks at all levels of govt, including the native ones. Don't know who would do the looking tho, ie what neutral party?

Yes, reserves that aren't viable need to be closed down. It would be a long and painful and expensive process tho, one which at the moment just doesn't have enough buy in from either side.

[Public_Domain]