[saturn_656]

Xort Xort:

$1:

A spokesperson for Energy Minister Bob Chiarelli said it is inaccurate to characterize what the province pays for renewable solar and wind power as a subsidy, even though producers of wind power are paid 13.5 cents per kilowatt hour — or more than three times what Ontario Power Generation receives for hydroelectric power.

Yeah, cut the subsidies to solar and wind, then pass the savings onto everyone.

When will people learn how terrible solar and wind are?

Solar and Wind have their uses. Base load generation isn't one of them, and if you do want to use it for that purpose it should be backed up by a natural gas station. Factor that into the cost too.

[Xort]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

Solar and Wind have their uses.

Like winning some of the green vote, or lining the pockets of friends of the party.

They should just build some more nuclear power plants and be done with it.

[LukeFinch]

Tory Leader Tim Hudak says Ontario must subsidize electricity costs for manufacturing if the province is to keep and attract jobs. Hudak insisted that advanced manufacturing is “the industry of the future, not the past,” explaining that it’s brains, not muscle that will drive job creation in this sector.

[Caelon]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

jeff744 jeff744:

If a manufacturer can't survive on its own then it's time to put it down, if they want to save on power costs then toss some solar panels on the roof and apply for those government grants.

First of all, it's not a level playing field and we compete against countries that heavily subsidize manufacturing (because they understand how crucially valuable manufacturing is) and places that pay, literally, slave wages. The middle class and modern democracy came about from the wealth generated from manufacturing activities and no substitute for the wealth creating power of manufacturing has yet emerged. We're seeing glimpses of the real post-industrial society right now where almost all of the wealth is concentrated in very few hands and the huge majority have no means available to them to earn a decent enough living to stay out of poverty. Service sector employment certainly can't and the vaunted "information age" appears to pay a living to a very small elite while merely entertaining the vast majority of us. You might feel "cutting edge" texting your friends all day long but it won't feed your children ... at all.

Really first of all Ontario is a have not province. That means the give away will be funded by the rest of Canada in transfer payments. It would be far better to do some belt tightening to get the cost of government down. You know live within your means like people must do when income has dropped.

If the manufacturing sector had rolled the profits from 10 years ago into modernization and productivity improvements when the dollar was 62 cents then they would not be looking for a hand out when the exchange rate changed.

Now that the strong US economy is driving our dollar down again shouldn't the request for a hand out come off the table? They have been made 10% more competitive in the last month.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Xort Xort:

$1:

A spokesperson for Energy Minister Bob Chiarelli said it is inaccurate to characterize what the province pays for renewable solar and wind power as a subsidy, even though producers of wind power are paid 13.5 cents per kilowatt hour — or more than three times what Ontario Power Generation receives for hydroelectric power.

Yeah, cut the subsidies to solar and wind, then pass the savings onto everyone.

When will people learn how terrible solar and wind are?

Actually, Spain has figured how out to combine wind and solar. What they did was make a funnel, turn it upside down and centered it in the middle of massive greenhouses. As the greenhouses heat up, the heat heads up an incline towards the funnel where the air currents move turbines to create electricity. It only cranks out about 50kW but it was built as a prototype to prove the technology works.
As a result, Australia is designing a massive version that will provide nuclear power levels of hydro.
The real beauty is, once it's up and running the operating costs will be minimal.

[QBall]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Actually, Spain has figured how out to combine wind and solar. What they did was make a funnel, turn it upside down and centered it in the middle of massive greenhouses. As the greenhouses heat up, the heat heads up an incline towards the funnel where the air currents move turbines to create electricity. It only cranks out about 50kW but it was built as a prototype to prove the technology works.
As a result, Australia is designing a massive version that will provide nuclear power levels of hydro.
The real beauty is, once it's up and running the operating costs will be minimal.

That is a neat idea but it will never be feasible for Canada. Six months of the year it would be too cold for it to work therefore it would generate nothing but still require upkeep.

[DrCaleb]

QBall QBall:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Actually, Spain has figured how out to combine wind and solar. What they did was make a funnel, turn it upside down and centered it in the middle of massive greenhouses. As the greenhouses heat up, the heat heads up an incline towards the funnel where the air currents move turbines to create electricity. It only cranks out about 50kW but it was built as a prototype to prove the technology works.
As a result, Australia is designing a massive version that will provide nuclear power levels of hydro.
The real beauty is, once it's up and running the operating costs will be minimal.

That is a neat idea but it will never be feasible for Canada. Six months of the year it would be too cold for it to work therefore it would generate nothing but still require upkeep.

It actually might work here too. The principal is that it operates on the heat difference, so all it needs are differences between ground and air temperature. Just in Australia, those differences are greater than here most of the year.

[PluggyRug]

It's the difference in temperature between inside and outside the greenhouse.

If its' -20C outside and -15C inside it will work okay.

[peck420]

If you guys are referring to Spain's solar updraft tower...it would work better in the winter then the summer.

Greater the heat differential, the stronger the updraft, the greater the generation potential.

[peck420]

So...after taking a quick peak at the design...

Weak sauce.

The designers have to do better.

By the by, if you think CO2 warms the atmosphere, you should see what building a bunch of these will do...

[andyt]

peck420 peck420:

By the by, if you think CO2 warms the atmosphere, you should see what building a bunch of these will do...

Care to explain that?

[peck420]

andyt andyt:

Care to explain that?

What do you think is going to happen when we start dropping 38.5 sq km , high efficiency radiators, all over the place?

Nothing?

[andyt]

What are those radiators radiating? Infrared. I suppose you're saying that would otherwise re-radiate into space? All these greenhouses are doing is concentrating the infrared in a specific locality so the temp differential and resulting air currents can be harnessed.

Wonder what sort of wind a large installation would generate at ground level.

[DrCaleb]

peck420 peck420:

andyt andyt:

Care to explain that?

What do you think is going to happen when we start dropping 38.5 sq km , high efficiency radiators, all over the place?

Nothing?

Yes. Nothing. All the generators are doing is redirecting the heat the sun gives anyhow. They take nothing, give nothing to the atmosphere.

[peck420]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Yes. Nothing. All the generators are doing is redirecting the heat the sun gives anyhow. They take nothing, give nothing to the atmosphere.

Can I hold you to this when desertification around every installation starts?

Converting 38.5 sq km of low reflectance ground (approx 4%) with a moderate reflectance of coated glass or polymer (approx 13%) is going to have consequences.

And that is only taking into account the energy that is being reflected outwards (what they would refer to as inefficiency or un-captured energy). Adding in the 0.0113 sq km heat stack, dumping warm air, 1 km high, into the atmosphere, will also have a large effect.

I'm a little shocked that that is your stance Dr. C. By that very same metric, burning fossil fuels does nothing. The energy (and CO2) would all have been released eventually. It is comprised entirely of energy the Earth received at some point. Humans just truncated the cycle by a couple hundred thousand years. Same thing is going to happen here. Energy that was supposed to be absorbed into the ground, and released over the next couple decades, is going to be 'captured', 'utilized', and 'released' in a fraction of the time (a day, really)...all the while removing the energy that was absorbed and used by the Earth.