[QBall]

Lemmy Lemmy:

andyt andyt:

Lemmy Lemmy:

misinformed masses who wrongly believe that dangerous people are being let back out on the streets.

They are. The doc in Montreal who killed his kids, out in no time.

Are they? You think he's dangerous? I prefer to trust the experts. If the shrinks say he's not a danger, he likely isn't. Have you an example of a case where they've gotten it wrong?

When's the last time these so called experts came out and admitted that what they are doing is, essentially, guess work? They have no way to effectively determine who is and who isn't cured, or even if the techniques they use are even a cure. If they ever came out and admitted this the whole profession would be called into question, and maybe it's about time it should be.

[Lemmy]

andyt andyt:

I just don't buy the idea that people deemed NCR are totally innocent and people found guilty are totally guilty. The two child killers I mentioned, they were seeking revenge on their wives. They should spend more time locked up.

Vince Lee seems more like the truly crazy one. No reason for the killing, just the voices in his head. Still, I don't particularly want him roaming the streets just because a panel of shrinks says he's heallluuud. As Zip points out, with Schizophrenia at least, there's no such thing, just management of the disease. I really have no problem letting these people out if they are under close supervision to ensure they are taking their meds and not going off the rails.

It seems that you're emphasizing punishment over community safety. The Quebec doctor (Guy Turcotte) may have committed horrible acts, but seems very unlikely to reoffend, since he has no more children to kill. Vince Li, on the other hand, is always going to be a danger to public safety. But you seem more concerned about Turcotte being out. And when we're talking about Li, it's all academic; he'll NEVER be let out. I'd wager everything I own on that.

QBall QBall:

When's the last time these so called experts came out and admitted that what they are doing is, essentially, guess work? They have no way to effectively determine who is and who isn't cured, or even if the techniques they use are even a cure. If they ever came out and admitted this the whole profession would be called into question, and maybe it's about time it should be.

Of course it's guess work. No one can predict the future, not even economists. But the proof's in the results, isn't it? Name me a case where they've gotten it wrong? I'm not aware of a single case in Canadian legal history where someone found NCR has been released then later harmed someone. The shrinks sure have a lot better batting average than, say, the National Parole Board.

[andyt]

Lemmy Lemmy:

andyt andyt:

I just don't buy the idea that people deemed NCR are totally innocent and people found guilty are totally guilty. The two child killers I mentioned, they were seeking revenge on their wives. They should spend more time locked up.

Vince Lee seems more like the truly crazy one. No reason for the killing, just the voices in his head. Still, I don't particularly want him roaming the streets just because a panel of shrinks says he's heallluuud. As Zip points out, with Schizophrenia at least, there's no such thing, just management of the disease. I really have no problem letting these people out if they are under close supervision to ensure they are taking their meds and not going off the rails.

It seems that you're emphasizing punishment over community safety. The Quebec doctor (Guy Turcotte) may have committed horrible acts, but seems very unlikely to reoffend, since he has no more children to kill. Vince Li, on the other hand, is always going to be a danger to public safety. But you seem more concerned about Turcotte being out. And when we're talking about Li, it's all academic; he'll NEVER be let out. I'd wager everything I own on that.

Nope. The thing is Turcotte and Shoenberg got out or day passes after a very short time in "treatment." Yes, I believe the Turcotte verdict is bullshit and he should be in jail. But either way, he should have been kept in longer. He may not have children now, but nothing prevents him from making more - no restrictions on him at all. I do believe he weaseled out on what he did. I don't care about punishment, don't want jail to be a horrible place, but I don't want people getting away with murder either. And if you're capable of killing your own kids, what else are you capable of?

Lee is obviously crazy. But the guy he killed is no more dead than Turcotte's kids. And Lee obviously fits the definition of not responsible. I'm saying if they do ever release him, it should be under very strict supervision, but so should Turcotte and Shoenberg. I'm not particularly advocating for the release of any of them. You can't heal these things, you can only manage them with drugs, and then imperfectly. So maybe they have to accept they can never get out again, and we make the best of it for them in the institution.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Yep.

Vince nay not have known right from wrong, but failing to take his meds means culpability, IMO, the same way that a drunk driver is culpable even he's too wasted to understand right from wrong. There's knowledge of foresight and recklessness.

Mmmm not quite. Unlike the drunk driver who STILL makes a conscious decision, the schizophrenic doesn't necessarily. Many mental illnesses are similar in that patients on meds(not all mind you) "convince" themselves that because they are doing well they don't need the meds anymore. This normally isn't a conscious decision but rather a cruel "joke" played by the person's brain.

[DrCaleb]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Lemmy Lemmy:

Yep.

Vince nay not have known right from wrong, but failing to take his meds means culpability, IMO, the same way that a drunk driver is culpable even he's too wasted to understand right from wrong. There's knowledge of foresight and recklessness.

Mmmm not quite. Unlike the drunk driver who STILL makes a conscious decision, the schizophrenic doesn't necessarily. Many mental illnesses are similar in that patients on meds(not all mind you) "convince" themselves that because they are doing well they don't need the meds anymore. This normally isn't a conscious decision but rather a cruel "joke" played by the person's brain.

I've heard schizophrenia described like this: You are walking down the street. A parking meter tells you that the rock on the sidewalk up ahead is trying to kill you. You know in your rational mind that the parking meter can't be talking to you, but you are still convinced the rock it trying to kill you.

That's what schizophrenics have to live with.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Lemmy Lemmy:

Yep.

Vince nay not have known right from wrong, but failing to take his meds means culpability, IMO, the same way that a drunk driver is culpable even he's too wasted to understand right from wrong. There's knowledge of foresight and recklessness.

Mmmm not quite. Unlike the drunk driver who STILL makes a conscious decision, the schizophrenic doesn't necessarily. Many mental illnesses are similar in that patients on meds(not all mind you) "convince" themselves that because they are doing well they don't need the meds anymore. This normally isn't a conscious decision but rather a cruel "joke" played by the person's brain.

I've heard schizophrenia described like this: You are walking down the street. A parking meter tells you that the rock on the sidewalk up ahead is trying to kill you. You know in your rational mind that the parking meter can't be talking to you, but you are still convinced the rock it trying to kill you.

That's what schizophrenics have to live with.

Yep, years ago when I was driving taxi, I picked up this woman at her house that started telling me she had to put her fan on the front porch cuz it wouldn't stop talking, even after she unplugged it.
I can't begin to imagine what life must be like inside those poor people's minds.

[Lemmy]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

I can't begin to imagine what life must be like inside those poor people's minds.

Crowded. You're never alone with a schizophrenic.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Lemmy Lemmy:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

I can't begin to imagine what life must be like inside those poor people's minds.

Crowded. You're never alone with a schizophrenic.

They'd be great as apartment renters though. You could collect the same month's rent multiple times

[Strutz]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Lemmy Lemmy:

Yep.

Vince nay not have known right from wrong, but failing to take his meds means culpability, IMO, the same way that a drunk driver is culpable even he's too wasted to understand right from wrong. There's knowledge of foresight and recklessness.

Mmmm not quite. Unlike the drunk driver who STILL makes a conscious decision, the schizophrenic doesn't necessarily. Many mental illnesses are similar in that patients on meds(not all mind you) "convince" themselves that because they are doing well they don't need the meds anymore. This normally isn't a conscious decision but rather a cruel "joke" played by the person's brain.

Yes, unfortunately true. Years ago I worked with someone with schizophrenia and I remember him saying that he'd read on the internet that the meds prescribed to him were doing more harm than good so he had stopped taking them and stopped visiting his doctor. He began to go downhill. He was in his mid-20's and had just moved out of his parent's house some months beforehand and was living on his own so had no one to monitor his meds (as his parents did). It reached a point where he was becoming a danger to himself and others and people at work were getting nervous because of things he was saying and doing (details matter not). The manager got in touch with his parents and doctor and because he would not listen to anyone the only solution was to have him "arrested" by the RCMP. They sent a specially trained officer to come and talk to him and he went very quietly and willingly. Last I had heard he was doing much better after spending some time "resting" in a facility. I hope he is still doing well today as he was a very intelligent and nice guy with a bright future ahead.

[BeaverFever]

OI also believe that often those who go off meds do so because of cost or because of unpleasant side effects. Another reason may be that the meds might still not make them appear totally normal to others but provide the patient with enough self-awareness that they realize they're perceived as a 'wierdo' so theyd rather go back to living in their fantasy-land than feel like a misfit.