[DrCaleb]

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

Actually backing corrupt and hostile regimes is where one looses credibility. How many times does it have to be proven that taking a pacifist stance against such regimes doesn't inspire them to become legitimate democratic societies? That's the entire problem with the UN, too many nations coddle or overlook the crimes that such nations commit in the hopes that these regimes will somehow come around to our way of thinking and become peaceful societies. It doesn’t work. These regimes need to first show that they are willing to be peaceful before they are recognized as being legitimate, not the other way around.

It's funny. I know you wrote that with the focus on Isreal, but it applies equally to Hamas too.

I point out Hamas, because they were the only ones to fire rockets at civillians lately, there has been relative peace with the West bank since the wall went up.

Hamas is just as corrupt a regime as any other, but given the choice between the two; I will pick the agressor that does not target civillians in it's military campaign every time.

I am very disappointed in the UN (what else is new) because they recognized Isreal as a country, now they are trying to interfere in it's internal politics with this decision.

[martin14]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

I point out Hamas, because they were the only ones to fire rockets at civillians lately, there has been relative peace with the West bank since the wall went up.

And Israel controls the borders and internal traffic.

Pretty sure that helps too.

[dino_bobba_renno]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

Actually backing corrupt and hostile regimes is where one looses credibility. How many times does it have to be proven that taking a pacifist stance against such regimes doesn't inspire them to become legitimate democratic societies? That's the entire problem with the UN, too many nations coddle or overlook the crimes that such nations commit in the hopes that these regimes will somehow come around to our way of thinking and become peaceful societies. It doesn’t work. These regimes need to first show that they are willing to be peaceful before they are recognized as being legitimate, not the other way around.

It's funny. I know you wrote that with the focus on Isreal, but it applies equally to Hamas too.

I point out Hamas, because they were the only ones to fire rockets at civillians lately, there has been relative peace with the West bank since the wall went up.

Hamas is just as corrupt a regime as any other, but given the choice between the two; I will pick the agressor that does not target civillians in it's military campaign every time.

I am very disappointed in the UN (what else is new) because they recognized Isreal as a country, now they are trying to interfere in it's internal politics with this decision.

Actually I was referring more so to Hamas but you are correct in that it does apply to both. I'm just tired of seeing the UN rewarding countries that don't value human rights or have a history of violence in some vain effort to make them feel "part of" in hopes that they'll change. It's gotten to the point where the nuts are running the nut house.

[Curtman]

How Israel lost Europe's support

$1:

As the hours wore on Thursday, the magnitude of the Israeli defeat in the United Nations General Assembly became continually clearer. One after another, the Foreign Ministry and Prime Minister's Office received reports from Israeli embassies in Europe that countries were changing their votes at the last minute and leaning toward the Palestinians. A few hours before the vote, officials in Jerusalem understood that Israel was left without any Western support except for the United States, Canada and the Czech Republic.

"We lost Europe," said a senior Foreign Ministry official. The erosion of Israeli support and shift to the Palestinians started a few days ago in France. President Francois Hollande's words at a press conference with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in Paris a month ago, in which he expressed doubts about the Palestinian move in the UN, disappeared as if he never spoke them.

Despite previous declarations, France announced that instead of abstaining, it would vote in favor of recognizing Palestine as a non-member state - an observer state without full membership in the United Nations.

Sixteen members of the European Union have announced their support for the Palestinian move: Spain, Cyprus, Portugal, Luxembourg, Finland, Denmark, Austria, Malta, Ireland, Italy, Slovenia, Belgium, Sweden, Germany and Greece all joined France in the past few days. Norway and Switzerland, which are not members of the European Union, also announced their support for the Palestinian request.

The UN General Assembly resolution recognizes Palestine within the 1967 borders as a non-member observer state. One hundred and thirty eight countries voted in favor of the resolution. Israel suffered a humiliating political defeat and found itself isolated along with the United States, Canada, Micronesia, the Marshall Islands and, at best, the Czech Republic and Germany. Britain, which only a few days ago led the attempt to pressure Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to withdraw his resolution, also changed its position.

The British promised they would abstain or vote against, but changed their stance and notified Israel they are leaning toward supporting the Palestinian request in the vote, if the Palestinian provide the British with a number of guarantees to restart the peace negotiations without any preconditions - as well as a Palestinian promise not to petition the International Criminal Court in The Hague against Israel. Israel hoped the British would not receive such guarantees - and abstain.

But the hardest blow came from Berlin. In Jerusalem, Germany was considered a certainty to vote against the UN resolution, and the German decision not to oppose the Palestinian bid but rather to abstain shocked the top brass at the Foreign Ministry and Prime Minister's office. A top German official who took part in discussions in Berlin, however, stressed that the writing was on the wall.

The senior German official, who has requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue, told Haaretz that Germany has been trying to help Israel on the Palestinian issue for a long time but Israel has not taken the necessary steps to advance the peace process. "The Israelis," he said, "did not respond in any way to our request to make a gesture on settlements."

Israeli officials were furious with the Germans. "The turnaround in the British position caused the Germans to change their vote since they did not want to remain isolated within the European Union," said a Foreign Ministry official.

Indecisive and confusing Israeli conduct surrounding the Palestinians' move at the UN has angered decision-makers in Germany. The Germans feel they have been taken advantage of, and that Israeli officials have been secretive and uncooperative.

The high-ranking German official said "the resolution" to recognize a Palestinian state "is positive in one sense - it clearly recognizes the two-state solution and the right of existence of the State of Israel."

Merkel-Netanyahu tension

The German decision to abstain in the UN vote is expected to exacerbate the considerable tension between Chancellor Angela Merkel and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, which has been an issue in recent years, regardless of the current situation. There is a great deal of anger among officials in the Prime Minister's Office over the change in Germany's position, especially since the messages coming from the Germans until yesterday morning indicated it was their intention to vote against the resolution.

A summit meeting between the governments of Israel and Germany is scheduled for next week in Berlin. Presumably the disagreement concerning the vote at the UN will cast a shadow on the discussions. Ever since Netanyahu became prime minister four years ago, his relations with Merkel have been very strained. Numerous times Merkel felt Netanyahu did not keep promises he had made to her, and she was especially angry at the continuation of the construction in the settlements.

Italian officials yesterday stated that Italy will support the Palestinians in their UN bid. Prime Minister Mario Monti called Netanyahu yesterday afternoon to inform him that Italy would also be changing its vote from abstention to support for the Palestinians. Monti explained the decision as an attempt to strengthen Abbas and the vision of two nations for two peoples.

Sweden's Foreign Minister Carl Bildt posted on his blog yesterday that Sweden would also vote yes after initially considering abstaining. Belgium likewise announced its support for the Palestinian move.

The German and Italian decisions did not cause the Czech government to change its mind in opposing the Palestinian initiative - making it the only remaining EU member opposing the Palestinian move. Israel has conducted intensive contacts with Bulgaria and Romania in recent days, and the two countries decided to abstain. The Baltic nations Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania also announced they would abstain, as did Hungary and Poland.

I think the point this article failed on is that it assumes that voting against Palestine is voting for Israel, and vice versa.

That's why they're losing support everywhere. They're bullies who cant win without bringing someone else down.

[Curtman]

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/news/c ... ehood-vote

$1:

Ottawa will recall its diplomats from Israel, the West Bank and the UN, saying it will review its relations with the Palestinian Authority after Thursday’s UN vote that implicitly recognized a Palestinian state.
...
“This unilateral step is an impediment to peace,” Mr. Baird said. “We again call on the Palestinian Authority and Israel to return to negotiations without preconditions, for the good of their people.”

At the UN, Mr. Baird called the UN motion “utterly regrettable,” accused the UN of abandoning its “policy and principle” and dropped a veiled threat of unspecified actions Canada might take in response saying Ottawa would be considering “all available next steps.”

Put a sock in it John Baird.

[FieryVulpine]

There is one advantage to this "recognition" of Palestinian statehood. It will be a legitimate act of war when Hamas next decides to shower Israel with rockets.

As for why Israel is losing support, I find it more than likely it is because Western Europe has been cowed by threats from their resident Islamists. You have dog poisonings in Spain. Jews are either being assaulted or murdered in France. Muslim immigrants in the United Kingdom are grooming teenage girls (and their media says "Asians" which paints Hindus and Sikhs in a negative light though those two groups integrate well into British society.) There are "no-go" zones for non-Muslims in the United Kingdom, Belgium, and other counters. There is an increase of sexual assaults against women in Stockholm and Oslo, which the ruling governments are eager to ignore in the name of political correctness. Hell, postal workers and firefighters cannot enter certain neighborhoods in Malmo, Sweden without getting assaulted.

Yep, it is the Israelis who are the bullies, eh?

[Curtman]

Stop building new settlements or be a pariah.

Simple.

I guess it will also be an act of war when settlements are built outside Israels 1967 borders?

[martin14]

FieryVulpine FieryVulpine:

There is one advantage to this "recognition" of Palestinian statehood. It will be a legitimate act of war when Hamas next decides to shower Israel with rockets.

The other advantage now is since the Palis have themselves broken the Oslo
Accords, there is no need for Curtman to whine about them anymore.
Clean slate.

$1:

Muslim immigrants in the United Kingdom are grooming teenage girls (and their media says "Asians" which paints Hindus and Sikhs in a negative light though those two groups integrate well into British society.)

I'll disagree, everyone in the UK knows full well 'Asians', or 'South Asians',
means Muslim Pakistanis.

[andyt]

Curtman Curtman:

Stop building new settlements or be a pariah.

Simple.

I guess it will also be an act of war when settlements are built outside Israels 1967 borders?

And close the old settlements. Retreat behind '67 borders. Hard to maintain the victim stance otherwise.

[BartSimpson]

Curtman Curtman:

Stop building new settlements or be a pariah.

Simple.

I guess it will also be an act of war when settlements are built outside Israels 1967 borders?

The 1967 borders became irrelevant when the Arabs refused to respect them in 1967 and again in 1973.

[Curtman]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Curtman Curtman:

Stop building new settlements or be a pariah.

Simple.

I guess it will also be an act of war when settlements are built outside Israels 1967 borders?

The 1967 borders became irrelevant when the Arabs refused to respect them in 1967 and again in 1973.

And they became relevant again when the resolution was passed yesterday, recognizing Palestine in the 1967 borders.

[BartSimpson]

Curtman Curtman:

And they became relevant again when the resolution was passed yesterday, recognizing Palestine in the 1967 borders.

And, as was pointed out, the flip side of this recognition is that when Hamas fires rockets on Israel the next time the UN won't be able to condemn Israel for denying rights to 'it's own citizens' as has been done in the past.

The next time the rockets fly Israel will have a clear path to call it a war against Israel by a sovereign authority and they'll be well within their rights to run the jerks out of Gaza and into the desert like they should have done in 1967.

[Public_Domain]

[desertdude]

The world has spoken. The squirming from the anti palestinians is amusing to watch.

[FieryVulpine]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

And, as was pointed out, the flip side of this recognition is that when Hamas fires rockets on Israel the next time the UN won't be able to condemn Israel for denying rights to 'it's own citizens' as has been done in the past.

Somehow I doubt the UN would let that stop them from condemning Israel while they either ignore, or are too ineffectual to condemn a Muslim-majority nation like Sudan from committing genocide. Granted, that is also largely because China used its veto but...

desertdude desertdude:

The world has spoken. The squirming from the anti palestinians is amusing to watch.

It does really change anything. Hamas is still in power and willing to use civilians as human shields in Gaza while wrecking the economy because they have more to gain by keeping their people in poverty.