[Brenda]

andyt andyt:

Brenda Brenda:

I think it is funny that he "does not deserve a death sentence". No offense, but Canada is not giving him a death sentence. The "defense lawyer has information" that he will be executed in Vietnam over escaping being a POW 37 years ago in North Vietnam. And South Vietnam is not protecting you then?

I agree with Andy. Give him the sentence he deserves.

We don't agree about sending him back to face a death sentence.

What does "And South Vietnam is not protecting you then?" mean?

It says in the story that he was being held as POW by NORTH Vietnam and escaped from there in 1975. So where is South Vietnam in all this? Don't tell me that "North Vietnam" and "South Vietnam" are not different countries now, because that would dismiss the lawyers whole case. He can't be sent back because he escaped North Vietnam. So, where is South Vietnam to protect the guy and give him a loving, nurturing future?

[Brenda]

Toastmaker Toastmaker:

There is no South Vietnam, Brenda. We lost that one, remember ?

Which is my whole point.
Vietnam is Vietnam.

[Brenda]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Brenda Brenda:

I think it is funny that he "does not deserve a death sentence". No offense, but Canada is not giving him a death sentence. The "defense lawyer had information" that he will be executed in Vietnam over escaping being a POW 37 years ago. I have a real hard time believing that, but whatever.

I agree with Andy. Give him the sentence he deserves.

When Canada abolished the death penalty, we also decided not to deport anyone to any country where they might be executed. By shipping him back to Vietnam, we are enabling another state to execute him.

We had a major uproar when the US deported Arar to Syria where he was tortured (because they couldn't do it themselves legally), so how is sending someone back to a country to be executed any different?

Sorry, if other nations want to execute people that's their prerogative, but we shouldn't be helping them do it.

You miss Andy's (and my) point.
I'm not saying he should be shipped back to Vietnam.
But I find "he does not deserve the death penalty" like it is Canada's fault a bit too much.

When you come to this country, there are a few things you cannot do. One is fucking up so bad that the jail sentence you get for what you did, exceeds 2 years. If I did that, I would be sent back. I would NOT get 2 years minus a day. I would also be sent back to my (SAFE) country of birth. So, what Andy says, and what I agree with, is why not give him the sentence he deserves, the sentence you and I would get too, and change the "send back" rules? I have no problem sending people back to countries where they came from, but I have a problem fibbing with sentences so they won't. That makes Canada a crime haven for refugees.

[bootlegga]

Brenda Brenda:

bootlegga bootlegga:

When Canada abolished the death penalty, we also decided not to deport anyone to any country where they might be executed. By shipping him back to Vietnam, we are enabling another state to execute him.

We had a major uproar when the US deported Arar to Syria where he was tortured (because they couldn't do it themselves legally), so how is sending someone back to a country to be executed any different?

Sorry, if other nations want to execute people that's their prerogative, but we shouldn't be helping them do it.

You miss Andy's (and my) point.
I'm not saying he should be shipped back to Vietnam.
But I find "he does not deserve the death penalty" like it is Canada's fault a bit too much.

When you come to this country, there are a few things you cannot do. One is fucking up so bad that the jail sentence you get for what you did, exceeds 2 years. If I did that, I would be sent back. I would NOT get 2 years minus a day. I would also be sent back to my (SAFE) country of birth. So, what Andy says, and what I agree with, is why not give him the sentence he deserves, the sentence you and I would get too, and change the "send back" rules? I have no problem sending people back to countries where they came from, but I have a problem fibbing with sentences so they won't. That makes Canada a crime haven for refugees.

I doubt that suddenly criminals are going to flock here and say," I can do whatever I want because I can't be deported back to the hellhole I came from, hahaha!"

Cases like this are far and away the exception, not the rule. Very few immigrants will a face a death penalty if they are deported back to their home country, and in the few rare cases that they do, then we should use discretion and make sure they don't get deported.

Life isn't black and white - there are shades of gray - and judges need to be able to use their judgement in sentencing to take that into account.

As I said, in this case, he should have been ordered to spend time in community service. Perhaps a rehab facility - like Alberta Hospital located in north Edmonton which deals with everyone from murderers to rapists to autistic and FASD cases - would have been better. A stay there would probably help him get the help he obviously needs.

[bootlegga]

Brenda Brenda:

It says in the story that he was being held as POW by NORTH Vietnam and escaped from there in 1975. So where is South Vietnam in all this? Don't tell me that "North Vietnam" and "South Vietnam" are not different countries now, because that would dismiss the lawyers whole case. He can't be sent back because he escaped North Vietnam. So, where is South Vietnam to protect the guy and give him a loving, nurturing future?

Apparently you aren't aware of the animosity that that two decade long conflict created - I suggest you open a history book and read up about it.

The Communists who still run Vietnam today would definitely execute this man - who they would consider a traitor - if he was deported. The judge made the right decision in not giving him a harsher sentence.

[Brenda]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Brenda Brenda:

bootlegga bootlegga:

When Canada abolished the death penalty, we also decided not to deport anyone to any country where they might be executed. By shipping him back to Vietnam, we are enabling another state to execute him.

We had a major uproar when the US deported Arar to Syria where he was tortured (because they couldn't do it themselves legally), so how is sending someone back to a country to be executed any different?

Sorry, if other nations want to execute people that's their prerogative, but we shouldn't be helping them do it.

You miss Andy's (and my) point.
I'm not saying he should be shipped back to Vietnam.
But I find "he does not deserve the death penalty" like it is Canada's fault a bit too much.

When you come to this country, there are a few things you cannot do. One is fucking up so bad that the jail sentence you get for what you did, exceeds 2 years. If I did that, I would be sent back. I would NOT get 2 years minus a day. I would also be sent back to my (SAFE) country of birth. So, what Andy says, and what I agree with, is why not give him the sentence he deserves, the sentence you and I would get too, and change the "send back" rules? I have no problem sending people back to countries where they came from, but I have a problem fibbing with sentences so they won't. That makes Canada a crime haven for refugees.

I doubt that suddenly criminals are going to flock here and say," I can do whatever I want because I can't be deported back to the hellhole I came from, hahaha!"

Cases like this are far and away the exception, not the rule. Very few immigrants will a face a death penalty if they are deported back to their home country, and in the few rare cases that they do, then we should use discretion and make sure they don't get deported.

Yes, I agree, that is what I am saying. But you do NOT have to do that by sentencing someone to 2 years minus a day while anyone else would get more, you can do that by adding something like "you will not be sent back to Vietnam after you served your 8 year sentence and you will be on probation for x time".

$1:

Life isn't black and white - there are shades of gray - and judges need to be able to use their judgement in sentencing to take that into account.

Which does still not mean they should sentence a murderer to 2 years minus a day only because Canada abolished the death sentence and their country of birth did not.

$1:

As I said, in this case, he should have been ordered to spend time in community service. Perhaps a rehab facility - like Alberta Hospital located in north Edmonton which deals with everyone from murderers to rapists to autistic and FASD cases - would have been better. A stay there would probably help him get the help he obviously needs.

Which is fine with me.

[Brenda]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Brenda Brenda:

It says in the story that he was being held as POW by NORTH Vietnam and escaped from there in 1975. So where is South Vietnam in all this? Don't tell me that "North Vietnam" and "South Vietnam" are not different countries now, because that would dismiss the lawyers whole case. He can't be sent back because he escaped North Vietnam. So, where is South Vietnam to protect the guy and give him a loving, nurturing future?

Apparently you aren't aware of the animosity that that two decade long conflict created - I suggest you open a history book and read up about it.

The Communists who still run Vietnam today would definitely execute this man - who they would consider a traitor - if he was deported. The judge made the right decision in not giving him a harsher sentence.

You missed my point.

[andyt]

Brenda Brenda:

It says in the story that he was being held as POW by NORTH Vietnam and escaped from there in 1975. So where is South Vietnam in all this? Don't tell me that "North Vietnam" and "South Vietnam" are not different countries now, because that would dismiss the lawyers whole case. He can't be sent back because he escaped North Vietnam. So, where is South Vietnam to protect the guy and give him a loving, nurturing future?

Nice try. You should have been a lawyer.

[andyt]

Toastmaker Toastmaker:

There is no South Vietnam, Brenda. We lost that one, remember ?

No, we didn't.

[Brenda]

andyt andyt:

Brenda Brenda:

It says in the story that he was being held as POW by NORTH Vietnam and escaped from there in 1975. So where is South Vietnam in all this? Don't tell me that "North Vietnam" and "South Vietnam" are not different countries now, because that would dismiss the lawyers whole case. He can't be sent back because he escaped North Vietnam. So, where is South Vietnam to protect the guy and give him a loving, nurturing future?

Nice try. You should have been a lawyer.

I know.

[Toastmaker]

If you do feel that way, Andyt, in what way did we "win" it ?

[andyt]

You lost it, we didn't.

[2Cdo]

Brenda Brenda:

You missed my point.

Just a little aside here Brenda. This seems to be a common refrain of yours, maybe the problem is you're not making your point clear or even, dare I say, not making a point at all!

You sometimes remind me of a joke we had in the army. Billys parents came to watch him on his graduation parade. When the troops marched out they were overheard saying "Oh look, Billy is the only one in step!"

Lately it seems that both sides of the political spectrum don't get your point. Leads me to believe the problem is not with everyone else.

[bootlegga]

Brenda Brenda:

bootlegga bootlegga:

I doubt that suddenly criminals are going to flock here and say," I can do whatever I want because I can't be deported back to the hellhole I came from, hahaha!"

Cases like this are far and away the exception, not the rule. Very few immigrants will a face a death penalty if they are deported back to their home country, and in the few rare cases that they do, then we should use discretion and make sure they don't get deported.

Yes, I agree, that is what I am saying. But you do NOT have to do that by sentencing someone to 2 years minus a day while anyone else would get more, you can do that by adding something like "you will not be sent back to Vietnam after you served your 8 year sentence and you will be on probation for x time".

Judges can't do that - they don't control the immigration system.

If he had given him an 8 year sentence, then this guy would have been deported because the bureaucracy at Immigration would have gotten involved.

Of course, the criminal could have then launched a series of appeals and reviews, which would have cost the government a small fortune. Instead, the judge used his discretion and saved you and I a lot of tax dollars and the possibility of An being deported and then executed.

Brenda Brenda:

bootlegga bootlegga:

Life isn't black and white - there are shades of gray - and judges need to be able to use their judgement in sentencing to take that into account.

Which does still not mean they should sentence a murderer to 2 years minus a day only because Canada abolished the death sentence and their country of birth did not.

Sure it does. If the judge doesn't take into account how the immigration system works in conjunction with the justice system, then this guy gets executed.

As I said, Canada has long taken the stand that we will not deport criminals to a nation that will execute them.

[Brenda]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

Brenda Brenda:

You missed my point.

Just a little aside here Brenda. This seems to be a common refrain of yours, maybe the problem is you're not making your point clear or even, dare I say, not making a point at all!

That's very well possible! Think with my "Johnny-come-lately European socialist" brain, it makes total sense, but it may be very well possible that I just do not get my point across...

$1:

Lately it seems that both sides of the political spectrum don't get your point. Leads me to believe the problem is not with everyone else.

That may be because I am not on either side of the spectrum, but hold my own ideas. Sometimes they are left leaning, sometimes they are right leaning. In they end, overall, it will be in the middle. I don't understand the 2 party politics anyway. I am not used to it, I don't understand how anyone can be only black or only white thinking... It is always a matter of compromising...