[RUEZ]

Curtman Curtman:

RUEZ RUEZ:

Curtman Curtman:

More drugs, more gangs. That's what prohibition does.

I imagine if drugs were legal like you want, they still wouldn't be legal in jail. Just like booze. So now what?

Removing the profit motive to join a gang leads to fewer gang members. The people with nothing to lose have the most to gain from prohibition. Will they find something else when prohibition ends to cheat the system, maybe. But it won't be as lucrative as black market drugs, and someone will already be doing it.

People in prison join gangs for many reasons, such as protection. I think you're to fixated on your love of drugs to be open minded to the real problems.

[Curtman]

RUEZ RUEZ:

I think you're to fixated on your love of drugs to be open minded to the real problems.

I think you are making excuses for the failure of horrible policy.

$1:

While many members were affiliated before their incarceration, gangs "aggressively recruit" within the penitentiaries to strengthen their powerbase behind bars.

They recruit aggressively on both sides of the bars.

$1:

The correctional service developed a strategic framework for dealing with gangs in 2006, and implemented its gang management strategy in 2008. It aims to encourage inmates to "exit" their affiliation and limit security risks posed by members.

But numbers have continued to climb

Current strategy: not working.

$1:

Candice Bergen, the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Public Safety, said the government’s “tough-on-crime” legislation has taken more gang members off the streets and put them behind bars.

This government is unable to affect this because it keeps assuring itself that it's dumb-on-crime policies are effective, when there is exactly zero evidence that is true, and tonnes of evidence that those policies didn't work south of the border.

$1:

Bergen dismissed any link between overcrowded conditions and double-bunking with violence, gangs and other problems behind bars.

And it denies obvious factors even exist.

$1:

Liberal MP Wayne Easter said Conservative policies have turned a correctional system that once focused on rehabilitation and making people better citizens into a “warehouse for making better criminals.”

“I think what we’re seeing is the tip of the iceberg of what’s happening to Canada’s correctional service system under the Harper government,” he said. “I think we’re going the way of the Americans.”

We've been headed down that road for a while now. Increased prohibition equals increased violence and gang activity. It's a direct causal relationship.

$1:

Correctional Investigator Howard Sapers said the spike in numbers is driven by more gang members being swept up by the criminal justice system, but also heavy recruitment behind bars.

Many inmates affiliate with gangs out of fear and self-preservation in the hostile prison environment, and some because there is not a lot to do in prisons, he said. The federal government has spent $120 million on new technology, hardware and security intelligence officers, but little investment in programs for education, treatment and harm reduction.

The use of the prohibition catalyst, and the complete lack of treatment programs to handle the influx is a disaster and it will only get worse.

Prohibition gives gangs money and power. Take it away sooner than later and we'll be better off.

[OnTheIce]

Curtman Curtman:

RUEZ RUEZ:

Curtman Curtman:

More drugs, more gangs. That's what prohibition does.

I imagine if drugs were legal like you want, they still wouldn't be legal in jail. Just like booze. So now what?

Removing the profit motive to join a gang leads to fewer gang members. The people with nothing to lose have the most to gain from prohibition. Will they find something else when prohibition ends to cheat the system, maybe. But it won't be as lucrative as black market drugs, and someone will already be doing it.

Besides reading articles and pieces on the subject, do you have any personal experience with gangs either directly or indirectly?

[Yogi]

[quote="Lemmy"]Good point. Why is it that prisons can't keep the drugs out? It's prison, for Christ's sake. Surely Corrections Canada could keep drugs out if they really wanted to. How hard could it be?[/quote]


Extremely difficult!

But that is where they have to start. Prison staff are a major source of contraband into the prisons. They are not searched as they enter or leave the institution. Requires a situation quite like working in a diamond mine where workers, upon entering the property first go to a SUPERVISED locker room and change from street clothes into company provided apparel. Absolutely no personal items are permitted on site.

Visits at the institutions would be highly supervised and held completely in the open. Visitors would have their own washrooms which would absolutely unaccessible to inmates or anyone else having contact with inmates at any time.
As it is right now, visitors secret drugs within, and later hide them in the washrooms where they are later retrieved, and turned over to the intended inmate.

Here is one of my favorite methods of bringing drugs into a prison. Eventually I worked my way into an 'outside job' which entailed us to be bussed, under guard to a warehouse in the city. I had 'medical permission' to be in possession of 'tube type' lip balm. My contact on the street would turn the 'lip stick' out completely, remove the spike inside the tube, wrap a few grams of hash in saran wrap, stuff it inside the tube, and then top that with a plug of the 'lip stick'. The tube was then hidden in a predetermined spot within our 'smoking-break area outside. I picked up one of these tubes every day for a long time.

Inside prisons 'drugs = power'. No one fucks with 'a candy-man'!

[Curtman]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Besides reading articles and pieces on the subject, do you have any personal experience with gangs either directly or indirectly?

Yes.

[Gunnair]

Curtman Curtman:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Besides reading articles and pieces on the subject, do you have any personal experience with gangs either directly or indirectly?

Yes.

A rejoinder to be remembered through the ages!

[Zipperfish]

Yogi Yogi:

Lemmy Lemmy:

Good point. Why is it that prisons can't keep the drugs out? It's prison, for Christ's sake. Surely Corrections Canada could keep drugs out if they really wanted to. How hard could it be?[/quote]


Extremely difficult!

But that is where they have to start. Prison staff are a major source of contraband into the prisons. They are not searched as they enter or leave the institution. Requires a situation quite like working in a diamond mine where workers, upon entering the property first go to a SUPERVISED locker room and change from street clothes into company provided apparel. Absolutely no personal items are permitted on site.

Visits at the institutions would be highly supervised and held completely in the open. Visitors would have their own washrooms which would absolutely unaccessible to inmates or anyone else having contact with inmates at any time.
As it is right now, visitors secret drugs within, and later hide them in the washrooms where they are later retrieved, and turned over to the intended inmate.

Here is one of my favorite methods of bringing drugs into a prison. Eventually I worked my way into an 'outside job' which entailed us to be bussed, under guard to a warehouse in the city. I had 'medical permission' to be in possession of 'tube type' lip balm. My contact on the street would turn the 'lip stick' out completely, remove the spike inside the tube, wrap a few grams of hash in saran wrap, stuff it inside the tube, and then top that with a plug of the 'lip stick'. The tube was then hidden in a predetermined spot within our 'smoking-break area outside. I picked up one of these tubes every day for a long time.

Inside prisons 'drugs = power'. No one fucks with 'a candy-man'!

Is your real name either Ricky or Julian?

Sounds like you've got some good stories to tell over a beer.

[Curtman]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Curtman Curtman:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Besides reading articles and pieces on the subject, do you have any personal experience with gangs either directly or indirectly?

Yes.

A rejoinder to be remembered through the ages!

Yeah, another thing to remember is that giving personal history around here gets you years of abuse. Go search my posts for Jeff Giles, and for Joel Maguet. Those are two stories I shared here and got abuse about. I believe I also mentioned the tale of someone that I grew up with who got involved with Joel, and ended up tying up his own grandmother and robbing her to pay back money he owed to the gangsters. Another couple of people I used to call friends who sold drugs out of their parents house had the Indian Posse come along to take their turf. Tied up the family, raped his sister and mother. All to intimidate them. I could go on about old stories, but what's the point? I'm not discussing anything recent here, those aren't my stories to tell.

Almost every single person you'll meet in a gang got started selling weed, then crack, then something else. Its what draws in new members, pays revenue, and provides them power.

[andyt]

Don't let Gunnair get to you Curt. He's actually for legalization, but spends all his time on this forum slamming you about it. That way he can keep in good with his right wing chums. Notice how he always goes after you, but leaves Zipper alone, even tho Zipper's position is more radical than yours (legalization without taxation). Then there's the moral superiority that his drinking is legal while you and Zip and Lemmy are moral scum for breaking the law. It's really not worth having an argument with somebody who positions himself like that. Seems like continually arguing against other people who hold the same position as you yourself do (eg. legalization) is also a form of trolling.

[Curtman]

andyt andyt:

Don't let Gunnair get to you Curt. He's actually for legalization, but spends all his time on this forum slamming you about it. That way he can keep in good with his right wing chums. Notice how he always goes after you, but leaves Zipper alone, even tho Zipper's position is more radical than yours (legalization without taxation). Then there's the moral superiority that his drinking is legal while you and Zip and Lemmy are moral scum for breaking the law. It's really not worth having an argument with somebody who positions himself like that. Seems like continually arguing against other people who hold the same position as you yourself do (eg. legalization) is also a form of trolling.

I know what Gunnair is. He's toned down considerably over the last year or so.

[Yogi]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Yogi Yogi:

Lemmy Lemmy:

Good point. Why is it that prisons can't keep the drugs out? It's prison, for Christ's sake. Surely Corrections Canada could keep drugs out if they really wanted to. How hard could it be?[/quote]


Extremely difficult!

But that is where they have to start. Prison staff are a major source of contraband into the prisons. They are not searched as they enter or leave the institution. Requires a situation quite like working in a diamond mine where workers, upon entering the property first go to a SUPERVISED locker room and change from street clothes into company provided apparel. Absolutely no personal items are permitted on site.

Visits at the institutions would be highly supervised and held completely in the open. Visitors would have their own washrooms which would absolutely unaccessible to inmates or anyone else having contact with inmates at any time.
As it is right now, visitors secret drugs within, and later hide them in the washrooms where they are later retrieved, and turned over to the intended inmate.

Here is one of my favorite methods of bringing drugs into a prison. Eventually I worked my way into an 'outside job' which entailed us to be bussed, under guard to a warehouse in the city. I had 'medical permission' to be in possession of 'tube type' lip balm. My contact on the street would turn the 'lip stick' out completely, remove the spike inside the tube, wrap a few grams of hash in saran wrap, stuff it inside the tube, and then top that with a plug of the 'lip stick'. The tube was then hidden in a predetermined spot within our 'smoking-break area outside. I picked up one of these tubes every day for a long time.

Inside prisons 'drugs = power'. No one fucks with 'a candy-man'!

Is your real name either Ricky or Julian?

Sounds like you've got some good stories to tell over a beer.

[OnTheIce]

Curtman Curtman:

Almost every single person you'll meet in a gang got started selling weed, then crack, then something else. Its what draws in new members, pays revenue, and provides them power.

Money is one aspect of desire for young men but these young men are in gangs for far more reasons that just looking to make a few bucks.

In the end, your assumptions of the outcome of legalization are just that, assumptions.

[Curtman]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Curtman Curtman:

Almost every single person you'll meet in a gang got started selling weed, then crack, then something else. Its what draws in new members, pays revenue, and provides them power.

Money is one aspect of desire for young men but these young men are in gangs for far more reasons that just looking to make a few bucks.

In the end, your assumptions of the outcome of legalization are just that, assumptions.

My assumptions? You think I started the legalization movement? I'm flattered.

[OnTheIce]

Curtman Curtman:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Curtman Curtman:

Almost every single person you'll meet in a gang got started selling weed, then crack, then something else. Its what draws in new members, pays revenue, and provides them power.

Money is one aspect of desire for young men but these young men are in gangs for far more reasons that just looking to make a few bucks.

In the end, your assumptions of the outcome of legalization are just that, assumptions.

My assumptions? You think I started the legalization movement? I'm flattered.

Yes, the assumptions you have made or conveyed above. I do not know whether or not they are yours or talking points but I know that they're based on speculation.

[Gunnair]

andyt andyt:

Don't let Gunnair get to you Curt. He's actually for legalization, but spends all his time on this forum slamming you about it. That way he can keep in good with his right wing chums. Notice how he always goes after you, but leaves Zipper alone, even tho Zipper's position is more radical than yours (legalization without taxation). Then there's the moral superiority that his drinking is legal while you and Zip and Lemmy are moral scum for breaking the law. It's really not worth having an argument with somebody who positions himself like that. Seems like continually arguing against other people who hold the same position as you yourself do (eg. legalization) is also a form of trolling.

Wow Andy, a shower will get the sand out of that vagina of yours!