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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:02 pm
 


OnTheIce OnTheIce:
Lemmy Lemmy:
You can read above to see that it was you, not I, making the initial unsupported claim. Give us some stats that indicate that fewer people miss out on healthcare services in a private system. Otherwise get back to the office and sell someone some Scotch-guard.


andyt andyt:
And you can back up your assertion that going to a private system would reduce suffering and dying needlessly? Certainly not true in the US.


I'm not advocating a private system. Never have, never will. Offer Canadians choice.

Do you need stats to know that allowing Canadians to seek care in another jurisdiction while still being covered by their provincial health care plan would be a benefit?

Picture this as your mother. Your mother has a condition that not acted upon quickly will result in her never walking again.

Would you not prefer the option to seek care elsewhere rather than be forced to wait an amount of time that will result in her being paralyzed or would you prefer to get a second mortgage to save her legs?

I find it cruel to make people that need urgent surgery to wait in order to save a few bucks. We're putting a price on the well being of people. We offer this to some people, but not all. That's not right.


So...no stats?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:04 pm
 


Gunnair Gunnair:
OnTheIce OnTheIce:
Lemmy Lemmy:
You can read above to see that it was you, not I, making the initial unsupported claim. Give us some stats that indicate that fewer people miss out on healthcare services in a private system. Otherwise get back to the office and sell someone some Scotch-guard.


andyt andyt:
And you can back up your assertion that going to a private system would reduce suffering and dying needlessly? Certainly not true in the US.


I'm not advocating a private system. Never have, never will. Offer Canadians choice.

Do you need stats to know that allowing Canadians to seek care in another jurisdiction while still being covered by their provincial health care plan would be a benefit?

Picture this as your mother. Your mother has a condition that not acted upon quickly will result in her never walking again.

Would you not prefer the option to seek care elsewhere rather than be forced to wait an amount of time that will result in her being paralyzed or would you prefer to get a second mortgage to save her legs?

I find it cruel to make people that need urgent surgery to wait in order to save a few bucks. We're putting a price on the well being of people. We offer this to some people, but not all. That's not right.


So...no stats?


You need stats to support common sense? :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:10 pm
 


OnTheIce OnTheIce:
Gunnair Gunnair:
OnTheIce OnTheIce:



I'm not advocating a private system. Never have, never will. Offer Canadians choice.

Do you need stats to know that allowing Canadians to seek care in another jurisdiction while still being covered by their provincial health care plan would be a benefit?

Picture this as your mother. Your mother has a condition that not acted upon quickly will result in her never walking again.

Would you not prefer the option to seek care elsewhere rather than be forced to wait an amount of time that will result in her being paralyzed or would you prefer to get a second mortgage to save her legs?

I find it cruel to make people that need urgent surgery to wait in order to save a few bucks. We're putting a price on the well being of people. We offer this to some people, but not all. That's not right.


So...no stats?

You need stats to support common sense? :lol:


It's humorous how you pee yourself a little in other threads demanding people back up assertions with stats yet won't do it yourself.

Telling...

Let's see those stats.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:41 pm
 


Gunnair Gunnair:
It's humorous how you pee yourself a little in other threads demanding people back up assertions with stats yet won't do it yourself.

Telling...

Let's see those stats.


Not quite as telling as your post....

Do you really need stats to tell you that if you give Canadians the choice of getting care in a more timely fashion in order to preserve their health is a good thing? Really, Gun? Really?

Do we allow people to suffer for months on end or allow them to travel a bit and get the treatment they deserve in a more timely fashion?

Surely you pride yourself as an intelligent man, it doesn't take much intelligence to see how this can, and is beneficial for all Canadians.

P.S. The entire point of this topic and article backs what I've said. If this teen was allowed to seek the timely care his doctors knew that he needed, he wouldn't be a paraplegic today. When you're forced to sit and wait for YEARS for the government to help you, it's clear to see how giving them a choice would have been very beneficial.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:58 pm
 


OnTheIce OnTheIce:
Gunnair Gunnair:
It's humorous how you pee yourself a little in other threads demanding people back up assertions with stats yet won't do it yourself.

Telling...

Let's see those stats.


Not quite as telling as your post....

Do you really need stats to tell you that if you give Canadians the choice of getting care in a more timely fashion in order to preserve their health is a good thing? Really, Gun? Really?

Do we allow people to suffer for months on end or allow them to travel a bit and get the treatment they deserve in a more timely fashion?

Surely you pride yourself as an intelligent man, it doesn't take much intelligence to see how this can, and is beneficial for all Canadians.

P.S. The entire point of this topic and article backs what I've said. If this teen was allowed to seek the timely care his doctors knew that he needed, he wouldn't be a paraplegic today. When you're forced to sit and wait for YEARS for the government to help you, it's clear to see how giving them a choice would have been very beneficial.


Stats...

Let's see that assertion of yours backed up with stats.

$1:
And yes, I would like some proof. When you call someone out and as them to back up their claims, be prepared to do the same.

You said it yourself.


Last edited by Gunnair on Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:02 pm
 


OnTheIce OnTheIce:
P.S. The entire point of this topic and article backs what I've said. If this teen was allowed to seek the timely care his doctors knew that he needed, he wouldn't be a paraplegic today. When you're forced to sit and wait for YEARS for the government to help you, it's clear to see how giving them a choice would have been very beneficial.

They could have gone to the States and paid for the treatment. Clearly they couldn't afford it. So what makes you think they could have afforded it here if we had privatized healthcare? :?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:09 pm
 


There are varying degrees of mixed systems. Canada needs to work on timely affordable access. Here we use a single payer system with government subsidies. As I've said before, The US has the best health care in the world if you can afford it, and Canada has some of the best health care in the world if you can wait for it. We need to be looking at some other nations and how they deliver health care, rather than remaining complacent about just being better than the American system


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:08 am
 


Gunnair Gunnair:
Stats...
Let's see that assertion of yours backed up with stats.


Gotta love ya Gun....arguing for the sake of arguing without any care for how you look doing it.

I didn't make any claim. I posed a question about how many people have to die while we force them to use our system and our system only.

Picture yourself standing outside under a beautiful blue sky. I say to you "the sky is blue" and you're yelling back at me "SHOW ME SOME STATS THAT THE SKY IS BLUE". :lol:

You've been given the answer once in the article and once in my post if that's not enough, you can gladly continue being obtuse for the sake of argument.

Lemmy Lemmy:
They could have gone to the States and paid for the treatment. Clearly they couldn't afford it. So what makes you think they could have afforded it here if we had privatized healthcare?


Again, for the second time, I'm not advocating for a private system.

Secondly, they did go to the States. After they waited for 27 months for the Government to help...which they didn't. I don't believe they should have to mortgage their future to do so.

I'm saying, give Canadians the choice to seek healthcare options outside of their jurisdiction if they can't be provided in a timely manor at home and have that treatment covered by your provincial plan.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:19 am
 


OnTheIce OnTheIce:

I'm saying, give Canadians the choice to seek healthcare options outside of their jurisdiction if they can't be provided in a timely manor at home and have that treatment covered by your provincial plan.

I agree with you.
Maybe there wasn't a problem in Ontario to perform this procedure in a timely manner. Or in Europe. Or in the US.
Why is that not possible? What does it really matter to an insurer WHERE it is done? I has to be paid for regardless.

Now this young man is paraplegic and they are fully responsible. An apology won't cut it. Pay their goddamned bill, AND the bills they will face for his care for the rest of his life (which could have been prevented...)...

Yeah, not letting them go elsewhere and have it done right was REALLY a good idea, economically... :roll:


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:25 am
 


OnTheIce OnTheIce:
Gunnair Gunnair:
Stats...
Let's see that assertion of yours backed up with stats.


Gotta love ya Gun....arguing for the sake of arguing without any care for how you look doing it.

I didn't make any claim. I posed a question about how many people have to die while we force them to use our system and our system only.

Picture yourself standing outside under a beautiful blue sky. I say to you "the sky is blue" and you're yelling back at me "SHOW ME SOME STATS THAT THE SKY IS BLUE". :lol:

You've been given the answer once in the article and once in my post if that's not enough, you can gladly continue being obtuse for the sake of argument.



Yeah, when push comes to shove......

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:37 am
 


Gunnair Gunnair:
Yeah, when push comes to shove......

Image


Invalid?

Do you disagree that giving Canadians the choice to seek timely care if required wouldn't be a benefit?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:07 am
 


We don't know what the outcome would have been even if he had been operated on in a timely manner. Spinal surgery has risks. But yes, there should be a system in place where if a doc says the surgery is urgent, and there's no ability to perform it here, it gets approved to be done in the US. Using US overcapacity is actually an efficient way for us to spend our healthcare dollars. In fact a system like that is in place AFAIK, it just wasn't used in this case.

But the problem with our healthcare system as far as funding goes is that we have rightwing politicians who want to starve the system so that eventually people will demand a private option.

Here's how the French system works:
$1:
The entire population must pay compulsory health insurance. The insurers are non-profit agencies that annually participate in negotiations with the state regarding the overall funding of health care in France. There are three main funds, the largest of which covers 84% of the population and the other two a further 12%. A premium is deducted from all employees' pay automatically. The 2001 Social Security Funding Act, set the rates for health insurance covering the statutory health care plan at 5.25% on earned income, capital and winnings from gambling and at 3.95% on benefits (pensions and allowances).[6]
After paying the doctor's or dentist's fee, a proportion is reimbursed. This is around 75 to 80%, but can be as much as 85%.[citation needed] The balance is effectively a co-payment paid by the patient but it can also be recovered if the patient pays a regular premium to a voluntary health insurance scheme. Nationally, about half of such copayments are paid from VHI insurance and half out of pocket.


But look out new immigrants to France:
$1:
For many of those planning to move to France in the future, or who arrived in the country from 23 November, 2007, full private health insurance is now a must - for more information see Healthcare changes in France - what you need to know.

Private health insurance is quite different from the current complementary insurance 'top up' policies because the underwriter assumes all the risk (up to policy limits) less any excesses payable by the insured. Here's more...
That's full on, US style private care.


And a system like that is fine. But with the nutbars down south, and our right wingers like Harper envious of them and dismissive of our "second rate socialist state" I do make the slippery slope argument. Randian idiocy doesn't stop at the border. Since the "private" insurers in France are non-profit anyway, why not just have one payer, the govt. It's more efficient. We can find many efficiencies in the system however. One is nurse practitioners becoming the primary "physician" for most people, with more complex ailments passed on to actual doctors. I can't think of anything I've ever gone to the doctor for that a np could not handle. Mostly anti-biotic prescriptions. The check-ups I got were very routine with mostly some lab tests. That can all be handled by an np who is on salary with much lower costs than doctors.

The other place we waste money on is being penny wise and pound foolish. We have seniors and others waiting in hospitals because there are no residential facilities available for them. Hospital beds are much more expensive than residential care beds. Same with the govt cutting back on support services for seniors in their homes - much cheaper than actually moving a senior to a care home. Stupid.

And finally, the greatest costs are in the first and last years of life. We should restrict spending on premies, not provide all that expensive care for "babies" (foetuses really) that only have a 50/50 chance of survival and if they do survive likely have reduced quality of life. We're legally allowing these babies to be aborted if a doctor agrees to do it, yet spend a fortune trying to save them if they are born at this age with poor chance of survival. We need to be tougher there. Same with old folks who are kept alive long past their best by date. Little quality of life, but because the technology exists to keep them bed bound but alive we use it. Stupid. Help them to have an easy passing, but don't force them to remain half alive and suffering for long periods with no hope of recovery. This is where a lot of our medical dollars are wasted.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:06 am
 


andyt andyt:

But the problem with our healthcare system as far as funding goes is that we have rightwing politicians who want to starve the system so that eventually people will demand a private option.


Sorry andy, you lost me at the first little nugget of bullshit.

Healthcare is a Provincial responsibility. In this case, the responsibility of a Liberal government in BC.

We have seen no sign of the federal government "starving" people of health care dollars.

In one particular case, the Fed's gave Ontario a 6% increase in health care funding this year and in turn, Ontario raised funding by 3% and pocketed the rest for something else.

This illusion that those on the left are champions of our health system is funny to say the least.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:12 am
 


OnTheIce OnTheIce:
Gunnair Gunnair:
Yeah, when push comes to shove......

Image


Invalid?

Do you disagree that giving Canadians the choice to seek timely care if required wouldn't be a benefit?


Dodge....again.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:14 am
 


OnTheIce OnTheIce:
Healthcare is a Provincial responsibility. In this case, the responsibility of a Liberal government in BC.

In name only. The bulk of the dough comes from the feds. To a lesser degree, same with education.


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