[Lemmy]

GreenTiger GreenTiger:

Bombing Hiroshima and Negasaki was definatly the right thing to do, if you are talking about bombing Dresden then that is something I agree was entirely unwarranted.

What about the 50 other cities that the US Air Force destroyed with firebombing before Hiroshima and Nagasaki were nuked? Was that unwarranted too?

martin14 martin14:

I suppose you also buy into the crap that the US forced Japan to bomb Pearl..

So why did the Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor then? Of course the embargo and assets freeze caused it.

[GreenTiger]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

GreenTiger GreenTiger:

Bombing Hiroshima and Negasaki was definatly the right thing to do, if you are talking about bombing Dresden then that is something I agree was entirely unwarranted.

My father-in-law, who lived in Germany from 1940 to 1950, disagreed. He'd acknowledged that Dresden was a critical transportation hub and that it was also an industrial center with many homes being used in the 'dispersed production' techniques that the Reich had adopted towards the end of the war. Further, he was always surprised that the Allies had never bombed Heidelberg since it was the home of a military academy and an artillery factory that was housed in the bunkers under the Koenigstuhl.

While Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and etc. were all tragic bombings by the Allies it is intellectually absurd to contemplate these events as if they took place in a vaccum.

Dresden happened because Warsaw, Coventry, Paris, Amsterdam, Oslo, Stalingrad, Moscow, and etc. happened. Hiroshima and Nagasaki happened because of Nanking, Singapore, Pearl Harbor, Iwo Jima, Guadalcanal, Wake Island, Burma, Indonesia, Tinian, Guam, Okinawa, and etc.

The Germans got what they asked for and so did the Japanese.

I'm personally thankful for the bombing campaigns that did to Germany and Japan what they absoultely wanted to do to us.

I was under the impression apparently wrong that Dresden had no military significance what so ever, apparently incorrect. Given that I feel a whole hell of a lot better about the bombing and thank you to the RAF Bomber Command and the USAAF.

[Thanos]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

jeff744 jeff744:

So, a hatred of jews had nothing to do with the allies rejecting thousands of attempted refugees from Germany? A hatred of jews was embedded in almost all of Europe, the US, and Canada at the time. Hitlers death squads used already existing hatred to their advantage, using locals to rat out jews and help with their capture in exchange for goods, surprisingly they even managed to convince jews to help them early on (most were killer later on).

Hating the Jews was not uncommon back then. Murdering them and working millions of them to death, that was a bit of a new wrinkle.

And there's sound evidence that Roosevelt and Churchill knew about the camps and did little to directly intervene. Honestly, the best thing either of them could do was to hasten the end of the war, which is exactly what they did.

The 1940's were before the era of commando raids and even if the Western Allies had sent commandos thousands of miles behind enemy lines to the camps....then what would they do? There was no way to get those people out of the Reich even if they had been freed. Consequently, what happened was all the Allies could do at the time.

Thus there was precious little that could have been done to stop the killings.

And part of the blame, sorry to say, lies with the Jews.

They were a mostly unassimilated population that had been living in Europe for 1800 years and in all that time they still spoke their own languages instead of the language of their host countries, they wore clothes that stood out, they were sometimes violent when their beliefs were offended, and they disproportionately gravitated towards the banking trade which has never endeared itself to anyone.

They isolated themselves from their neighbors and when TSHTF their neighbors were frequently not willing to stand up to the Nazis to defend the total strangers who lived next door.

Had they assimilated into their respective host countries then the Holocaust would have been a far more difficult enterprise. Denmark was a fine example of this as Jews in that country spoke the local language and were active participants in community life. The Germans had a bugger of a time doing their thing in a country where even the Royal family wore yellow Stars of David on their clothes.

On an aside, had the Jews also not been disarmed by the European fad for gun control they'd have been able to fight the Germans. As it was, a few Jews with less than twenty firearms held off the Germans for quite a while in Warsaw. Imagine just 1 million of those Jews being armed and Israel might today be calling Berlin their capitol city. That's a big reason right there why Israel has a collective revulsion at the notion of gun control.

'Never again!' is not just a slogan in Israel. It is a battle cry.

Anyhow, unassimilated populations are and always will be a focus. Sometimes for good reasons, sometimes not.

There's a lot of inaccuracy there. It's kind of difficult to assimilate into an existing majority population when that majority makes it clear that they want nothing to do with you. When a nation forces you to live in border regions just to make it easier to evict you when the time comes, it should become obvious that assimiliation is a practical impossibility for a minority that's become so wrongly and unfairly despised. If anything, in the face of almost 1700 years of incessant hatred and being blamed as a race by Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox alike for the death of Christ, it's more amazing that the Jews were able to survive in Europe at all long before the Nazis made their first appearance.

And the Jews got into banking and other mercantile professions for one reason only; they were banned practically everywhere in Europe during the Middle Ages and Renaissance from ever owning land. As such this effectively negated them from ever becoming farmers, which in turn kept them from ever fitting in with the majority of the population who would have been peasants. This sort of thing was typical of the artificial barriers that European Christian society kept creating between themselves and the Jews. Once and outsider, always an outsider. And it's easier to eventually turn that outsider into a mortal enemy that deserves destruction, as too many kings, popes, and other leaders all the way through to Hitler would do when it became politically convenient for them to do so.

[GreenTiger]

Thanos Thanos:

Stop it already. Japan was a fascist society with a fascist government that had already killed tens of millions of other people by the time the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs were dropped. If the society supports the government and military as it engages in atrocities in other countries, and if it benefits from the wholesale looting of resources from those countries and from the massive enslavement of the populations of those countries, then it is a legitimate target of reprisal for it's deliberate warmaking, murder, and theft.

You know absolutely nothing of history. The Japanese of seventy years ago are nothing like the Japanese of today. If anything modern Japan, and Germany too, are only the way they are today because the West and the Soviets literally kicked the warmongerers in those societies to death and drove the desire to engage in imperial conquest out of their culture.

Once again, YOU know nothing. You've filled your head with a bunch of useless anti-historical babble from idiots. Your allowance for believing in the shit that you've swallowed is rapidly coming to an end so grow the fuck up already.

In today's PC minded thinking we should have calculated the absolute minimum force necessary. In those days you stuck back with everything you had and prayed that that was enough.

It is am entirely different world now then it was then and thank God we live in this one.

[jeff744]

GreenTiger GreenTiger:

Thanos Thanos:

Stop it already. Japan was a fascist society with a fascist government that had already killed tens of millions of other people by the time the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs were dropped. If the society supports the government and military as it engages in atrocities in other countries, and if it benefits from the wholesale looting of resources from those countries and from the massive enslavement of the populations of those countries, then it is a legitimate target of reprisal for it's deliberate warmaking, murder, and theft.

You know absolutely nothing of history. The Japanese of seventy years ago are nothing like the Japanese of today. If anything modern Japan, and Germany too, are only the way they are today because the West and the Soviets literally kicked the warmongerers in those societies to death and drove the desire to engage in imperial conquest out of their culture.

Once again, YOU know nothing. You've filled your head with a bunch of useless anti-historical babble from idiots. Your allowance for believing in the shit that you've swallowed is rapidly coming to an end so grow the fuck up already.

In today's PC minded thinking we should have calculated the absolute minimum force necessary. In those days you stuck back with everything you had and prayed that that was enough.

It is am entirely different world now then it was then and thank God we live in this one.

That and everything back then was spray and pray instead of today's one shot one kill style of warfare.

[ShepherdsDog]

As Thanos pointed out, the Jews were forced into the banking industry because they were excluded from most other trades and occupations. it was also easier to hide gold or relocate it and start again when the local goyim decided it was time for a new pogrom against the Christ killers..... A farm not so easy. This was a reason why many were also traders, or in professions that could be thrown on a horse and hurried out of the district at the first sight of pitchforks and torches. Bart is blaming the victim here. They were forced to remain seperate.

[Regina]

This topic has always been a great source of entertainment.

[Lemmy]

Thanos Thanos:

And the Jews got into banking and other mercantile professions for one reason only; they were banned practically everywhere in Europe during the Middle Ages and Renaissance from ever owning land.

They were also banned from joining any Guilds, which further segregated Jews and encouraged them to seek other enterprises.

[jeff744]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

As Thanos pointed out, the Jews were forced into the banking industry because they were excluded from most other trades and occupations. it was also easier to hide gold or relocate it and start again when the local goyim decided it was time for a new pogrom against the Christ killers..... A farm not so easy. This was a reason why many were also traders, or in professions that could be thrown on a horse and hurried out of the district at the first sight of pitchforks and torches. Bart is blaming the victim here. They were forced to remain seperate.

I believe that Christians also weren't allowed to bank in Europe for an extremely long time as well due to church rules about Christians not lending to other Christians and collecting interest (the rule was in decline a little before the crusades iirc). Jews basically became the loophole to allow banking to continue.

[GreenTiger]

Regina Regina:

This topic has always been a great source of entertainment.

Oh yes indeed.

[Tricks]

Lemmy Lemmy:

So why did the Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor then? Of course the embargo and assets freeze caused it.

And why did the embargo happen?

[Xort]

$1:

All 50 of Japan's nuclear plants were shut after the meltdown at Fukushima, which was triggered by a tsunami and earthquake in March 2011.

The crisis was regarded as the worst nuclear disaster since Chernobyl in 1986.

The worst nuclear disaster since 1986, and no one was killed and no one was badly hurt. Two workers died in the clean up operation from unrelated causes.

It's so unsafe!

[jeff744]

Xort Xort:

$1:

All 50 of Japan's nuclear plants were shut after the meltdown at Fukushima, which was triggered by a tsunami and earthquake in March 2011.

The crisis was regarded as the worst nuclear disaster since Chernobyl in 1986.

The worst nuclear disaster since 1986, and no one was killed and no one was badly hurt. Two workers died in the clean up operation from unrelated causes.

It's so unsafe!

And it used a 40 year old reactor that supposedly had prior issues with maintenance. You basically have to try to make a modern reactor melt down due to safety features out the ass.

[Lemmy]

Tricks Tricks:

And why did the embargo happen?

That's a matter of much speculation. The classic explanation was to "settle down" Japanese expansion and pressure them into peace, the US desire for peace proven by their 2 year refusal to enter into the European conflict.

Another theory is an economic one rather than a military one. What was America's great problem in 1940? Was it Indochina or anything the Japanese were doing? No. It was the Great Depression. What's the fastest way to fix a depression? War. But war was an unpopular notion in the middle of the Depression, WWI still a fresh memory. So what made the war popular? Pearl Harbor.

Then there's the Superman theory; that the USA was the benevolent protector of freedom on Earth and issued the embargo, in response to Nazi-Japanese agreements, to get a chance to fight for the civil rights of the Chinks and Jews against the evil dictators.

But does the motive for the embargo really matter? The fact is that it DID provoke the Pearl Harbor attack. Would Japan have attacked anyway? Maybe, likely not, IMHO. But the embargo, at the very least, hurried the attack. Certainly the Americans would have considered the possible Japanese reactions to the embargo before passing it. Surely one of those scenarios must have anticipated military action against the USA. They must have anticipated it. A five year-old would anticipate it. Maybe it's because I'm an economist, but when I'm looking for the most likely theory among several, I tend to most often believe the economic reason.

Why did the US embargo Japan? To bring America into WWII. Why? To end the Depression and position the USA to rule the world. The proof is in the pudding. And if the Japanese hadn't bit and DID stop their expansion instead of attacking the USA, that would have been a pretty good outcome for the USA too, wouldn't it? We call that a win-win scenario. So why do I believe Japan was embargoed? Because it was a win-win scenario for the USA. If the Japs backed down, fine, the US could still have gone over and kicked the shit out of Germany, if they'd wanted to. If the Japs attaced, fine, game on.

And why can't the reason for the embargo be a combination of many theories? Maybe it was a win-win-win-win-win scenario. But either way, the Americans knew that a Japanese military response was a likely response when they issued the embargo.

[Xort]

jeff744 jeff744:

And it used a 40 year old reactor that supposedly had prior issues with maintenance. You basically have to try to make a modern reactor melt down due to safety features out the ass.

Japanese company is greedy and cuts corners when they can. Boss bows and says he is sorry, business as usual.

The funny part about the FD problem was that if they had left the reactors running they wouldn't have had a problem. Or if they could have deployed a mobile power source to charge the batteries it would have been fine. Or if they had made the basement water proof, no problmes. Or if they had updated the design like they were told to by the manufacture.

This is why electrical power should be left upto the government.

~

I like nuclear power, even the terrible light and heavy water designs. My new love if for LFTRs, google it up if you don't know. The LFTR in 5min video is great. It also has 2hrs of detail after the 5min summery.