[Lemmy]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

And, according to this article, you get what you pay for.

Myself, I pay for decent coverage through Kaiser Permanente and in thirty years of being with them I've never had a complaint. People who buy cheap-snot insurance over the net for $15 a month get what they pay for and that's their choice.

True, you pay far less than I do but you also get far less than I do.

I'll keep what I have, thank you.

I don't get far less than you unless you're more unhealthy than me. But there are aspects to each of our systems that could be improved. Wouldn't it be better, for both of us, to learn from one another to improve both of our systems?

[BartSimpson]

Brenda Brenda:

That says enough. If you can afford to pay for a screening YOU won't die. If you can't YOU WILL.
Regardless if they eliminate it. AS LONG AS YOU PAY, you get your screening. How many "wives" will die because they can't? Because their bosses do not offer a health care plan? Do not offer benefits? But hey, NOT YOUR PROBLEM.

Only interested if it is free? Fuck that. You are yelling "my wife would have died". Guess what. PEOPLE ARE DYING because they CAN'T AFFORD IT.

Health care is not free for the people who provide it so it can't be free for the people who receive it. Someone has to pay for it.

The problem with this argument is that leftists and socialists eventually overreach with it and apply it to too many things.

Health care has to be free? Then what about food? What about housing?

Pretty soon you have the Soviet Union where everyone has a right to all sorts of free things the only problem is that there's never an adequate supply of those things because no one is paying for them because everyone expects to get them for free.

Andy and I once engaged in this topic and he brought up the disparity in what Canadians pay for health care and what Americans pay and that made me do some homework. I discovered that the USA far and away outstrips Canada in what we invest in medical technology and that accounts for a large part of that gap.

We discovered some interesting things like the fact that the state of Hawaii with about 1.4 million people has far more medical air transport capability than does all of Canada combined.

The city of Philadelphia alone has more MRI and CT scanners than does all of Canada combined.

Montana has more PICU beds than does all of Canada combined.

Canada has some 4,000 total medical transports (ambulances and etc.) while California with about the same population has over 30,000.

All of this is not free and almost all of that American medical technology is not provided by any government.

That you get all indignant because some poor people are net getting the same care as people who pay for their care is nice of you and I'd invite you to start your own charity to provide such screenings to the poor. Do something about it. Yourself.

But asking us to adopt your system which isn't working so well for you in order that we can address the needs of a minority at the cost of reducing care to the majority is a fool's errand and, fortunately, we have a Supreme Court that this month is expected to stop that notion from taking root here.

Meanwhile, if you get sick enough you'll be damned glad that Health Canada now pays for you to receive treatment in the nasty old United States when they have no means to care for you in Canada.

[OnTheIce]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

True, you pay far less than I do but you also get far less than I do.

How so?

[BartSimpson]

Lemmy Lemmy:

I don't get far less than you unless you're more unhealthy than me. But there are aspects to each of our systems that could be improved. Wouldn't it be better, for both of us, to learn from one another to improve both of our systems?

I started out my military career by getting shot in the knee. I had to argue with the VA that wanted to just amputate my leg and then they put in a crappy knee for me and put me out on 50% disability. When I later saw my regular doctor at Kaiser he referred me to orthopedics and they put in a much better knee for me that allowed me to get off disability and eventually return to service. They've subsequently done two more knee replacements for me as technology has improved.

I had a recent issue that required a CT scan. My doctor ordered the scan on a Thursday afteroon and it was done the following Tuesday (with Monday off for Memorial Day). How long would you have to wait for that?

As to learning from Canada's system, why, yes, I have. I've learned that I do not want your system in any way, shape, or form.

As to the quality of our system? Given the number of your government leaders who come here for care they cannot receive at home I think that speaks clearly.

On the reverse of that, can you name an American political leader of the past fifty years who went to Canada for medical treatment?

Don't get me wrong, I love Canada but the fascination you folks have with a health care system that depends on the USA to handle things you can't is quite novel.

Part of what my concern about Obamacare was that the legislation specifically prohibited foreigners from obtaining treatment in the USA once it took effect. For a lot of Canadians this would be a death sentence.

So why you would want us to adopt this system at the express cost of Canadian lives eludes me.

[BartSimpson]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

True, you pay far less than I do but you also get far less than I do.

How so?

Because you get what you pay for.

Example:

Free food...



The place where I'm going to go have lunch in about eight minutes (Il Fornaio - Sacramento) ...

[OnTheIce]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

I had a recent issue that required a CT scan. My doctor ordered the scan on a Thursday afteroon and it was done the following Tuesday (with Monday off for Memorial Day). How long would you have to wait for that?

Depends on the issue. I had a pain in my stomach and had a CT within a few hours. I waited 2 weeks for an MRI on a minor issue.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

As to the quality of our system? Given the number of your government leaders who come here for care they cannot receive at home I think that speaks clearly.

Rarely is it an issue of care they "cannot receive" it's an issue of not wanting to wait.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

On the reverse of that, can you name an American political leader of the past fifty years who went to Canada for medical treatment?

That makes little sense due to Canada's system being public. Apples and oranges. If Canada offered private medicare, it would be a different story.

[OnTheIce]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Because you get what you pay for.

You've yet to demonstrate anything that you get "more" of besides faster treatment(in some cases).

[Brenda]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Brenda Brenda:

That says enough. If you can afford to pay for a screening YOU won't die. If you can't YOU WILL.
Regardless if they eliminate it. AS LONG AS YOU PAY, you get your screening. How many "wives" will die because they can't? Because their bosses do not offer a health care plan? Do not offer benefits? But hey, NOT YOUR PROBLEM.

Only interested if it is free? Fuck that. You are yelling "my wife would have died". Guess what. PEOPLE ARE DYING because they CAN'T AFFORD IT.

Health care is not free for the people who provide it so it can't be free for the people who receive it. Someone has to pay for it.

We all do. Taxes. Like we all do for the elementary and high school education for our kids, whether we have them or not. Taxes.

$1:

The problem with this argument is that leftists and socialists eventually overreach with it and apply it to too many things.

Like the "righties" are "pro life" (or more, against choice, which includes abortion and assisted suicide) but are pro gun ownership for every moron.

$1:

Health care has to be free? Then what about food? What about housing?

Healthcare is not free. Basic health care is paid for by taxes. If you want an extension, you can buy an insurance or benefits from your employer.

$1:

Pretty soon you have the Soviet Union where everyone has a right to all sorts of free things the only problem is that there's never an adequate supply of those things because no one is paying for them because everyone expects to get them for free.

Right. Black or white.

$1:

Andy and I once engaged in this topic and he brought up the disparity in what Canadians pay for health care and what Americans pay and that made me do some homework. I discovered that the USA far and away outstrips Canada in what we invest in medical technology and that accounts for a large part of that gap.

And what I see is a friend in Pennsylvania fighting cancer who has to sell her car (and, coincidentally just got laid off, but that had nothing to do with her fight for cancer, but she did lose her benefits) and probably her house, where she lives with her husband and 3 (teenage) kids (husband who works full time too) because of the medical costs she has, EVEN THOUGH she has insurance, and my next door neighbour who is fighting breast cancer and has no financial problems as a result of medical bills what so ever.

$1:

We discovered some interesting things like the fact that the state of Hawaii with about 1.4 million people has far more medical air transport capability than does all of Canada combined.

The city of Philadelphia alone has more MRI and CT scanners than does all of Canada combined.

Montana has more PICU beds than does all of Canada combined.

Canada has some 4,000 total medical transports (ambulances and etc.) while California with about the same population has over 30,000.

All of this is not free and almost all of that American medical technology is not provided by any government.

And not affordable for people who need it. And if you refuse to insure yourself and you get into an accident, YOU WILL be taken care of, whether you like it or not, and you will be billed.

$1:

That you get all indignant because some poor people are net getting the same care as people who pay for their care is nice of you and I'd invite you to start your own charity to provide such screenings to the poor. Do something about it. Yourself.

See above anecdote about my friend.

$1:

But asking us to adopt your system which isn't working so well for you in order that we can address the needs of a minority at the cost of reducing care to the majority is a fool's errand and, fortunately, we have a Supreme Court that this month is expected to stop that notion from taking root here.

There are millions of people who do not agree with you. Even in the US.

$1:

Meanwhile, if you get sick enough you'll be damned glad that Health Canada now pays for you to receive treatment in the nasty old United States when they have no means to care for you in Canada.

Sorry, can't afford it, so tote your horn somewhere else.

[Brenda]

Btw, I asked who was paying for it because a friend of mine in the US just turned 50, had a prostate exam, and had to ask his insurance company if the colonoscopy the doctor suggested BECAUSE he turned 50 would be covered. Which means, in my book, that those "standard" screenings are only "standard" when your private insurance company says you can have one.

[andyt]

Brenda Brenda:

Btw, I asked who was paying for it because a friend of mine in the US just turned 50, had a prostate exam, and had to ask his insurance company if the colonoscopy the doctor suggested BECAUSE he turned 50 would be covered. Which means, in my book, that those "standard" screenings are only "standard" when your private insurance company says you can have one.

For HMO care, you phone up and a high school grad looks it up on their computer and tells you if you're covered or not. Then you have to go to an HMO approved doctor. Then you'll have to pay a co-payment. Then the insurer will look to see if there's any chance they can deny you coverage after the event (you didn't declare some minor detail in your application for coverage) and will try to recoup their costs from you, and or decide that you had a pre-existing condition what invalidates coverage. 50% of bankruptcies in the US are due to medical expenses. People who lost their jobs in the current recession lose their medical coverage, if that is, their job had any in the first place.

The US has very good high-tech medicine for the few folks who are lucky enough to have premium coverage and and an insurer who does't fuck them over after the fact. But some medical outcomes are actually better in Canada, and we have a longer life expectancy and much lower infant mortality. We could do better, but we're already doing way better than the US for the majority of the population.

[BartSimpson]

Brenda Brenda:

Like the "righties" are...pro gun ownership for every moron.

I'm not in favor of you owning a firearm so I guess you'd be wrong on this assumption.

[Lemmy]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

I had a recent issue that required a CT scan. My doctor ordered the scan on a Thursday afteroon and it was done the following Tuesday (with Monday off for Memorial Day). How long would you have to wait for that?

It would depend on the reason for the CT. If it was for an aneurysm or something critical, I wouldn't even have to wait for the following Tuesday. I'd get it immediately.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

As to learning from Canada's system, why, yes, I have. I've learned that I do not want your system in any way, shape, or form.

As to the quality of our system? Given the number of your government leaders who come here for care they cannot receive at home I think that speaks clearly.

Myth. Many many more Americans come to Canada for care than vice versa.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Don't get me wrong, I love Canada but the fascination you folks have with a health care system that depends on the USA to handle things you can't is quite novel.

Myth. Complete nonsense.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Part of what my concern about Obamacare was that the legislation specifically prohibited foreigners from obtaining treatment in the USA once it took effect. For a lot of Canadians this would be a death sentence.

So why you would want us to adopt this system at the express cost of Canadian lives eludes me.

Everything you've said is complete myth. In Canada, we do have wait times for non-critical care. Some of our richer citizens that don't want to wait come down and pay to jump the queue in the USA. But they wouldn't have to wait if they were in more immediate need.

I like the option of having some private services (like CT scans and those types of things) so that people who want to pay for faster service can. But the notion that waiting for healthcare in Canada costs lives is complete myth.

What's wrong with Obama care is that it includes private insurance companies rather than a single-payer system. The biggest failing of your system is that a third of all dollars spent in the healthcare system go to line the pockets of insurance companies. As good as your system may be, think how much better it could be if that third of spending that's gobbled up by insurance companies actually got spent on healthcare.

[Brenda]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Brenda Brenda:

Like the "righties" are...pro gun ownership for every moron.

I'm not in favor of you owning a firearm so I guess you'd be wrong on this assumption.

Of course yer not. I ain't a moron

(You'd be surprised tho how well I can shoot )

[BartSimpson]

andyt andyt:

The US has very good high-tech medicine for the few folks who are lucky enough to have premium coverage and and an insurer who does't fuck them over after the fact.

Luck has nothing to do with it, Andy. I worked hard for what I have and I work hard for what I earn. That someone else is not automatically entitled to what I have, and that I am not automatically entitled to what someone else has is perfectly fair to me. If someone wants to whine about what I have and that this isn't 'fair' to them because they didn't sacrifice to earn these things then I really don't care FA about them.

People who are fraught by circumstance have my sympathies and myself and others are free to help them as we will. Using the force of government to extract my income from me in order to subsidize illegal aliens and multiple generations of welfare recipients is something I adamantly oppose.

Back to Brenda: Your notion that 'taxes' pay for health care and that this is somehow 'fair' flies in the face of the reality that less than half of the wage earners in the USA actually pay net taxes. That means less than 49% of the people in the country subsidize the rest. And you want this minority to add everyone else's health care bills to their tax burdens?

Sorry, no.

And by 'no' I mean HELL NO!

[BartSimpson]

Lemmy Lemmy:

In Canada, we do have wait times for non-critical care.

Indeed, you do.

http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/08/17/ ... nity-beds/

$1:

They’re now pioneering the ultimate expression of government health care: the ten-month waiting list for the maternity ward.