[andyt]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Virtually harmless, Andy. Not harmless. I agree there is no such thing as a harmless drug.

By virtually harmless I mean that it's harm to society and to most individuals is small to the point of being insiginificant. Millions of people drink caffeine everyday. I'm not a newshound but I've never heard of anyone dying from it. I imagine there are billions of ASA tablets on the market in North America alone, yet aspirin mortality is exceedingly rare (excepting cases where people take it commit suicide).

And frankly, if you want to ban aspirin and cffeine, you'd have to ban all over the counter medications and any substance (peanuts, shellfish, chocolate) that can cause adverse effects in people. You best be careful though, because when they were done banning all of those things, they might take a look at bicycles. Those things can be dangeous you know.

Well, I guess if I'd asked you to define virtually harmless we wouldn't have this stimulating discussion. Although I still don't agree with your new definition. I think there are significant harms that come from marijuana. And people not dying from it doesn't seem like a high (low?) enough bar to set to call it insignificant. There is something to the cliche about the stoners - it does waste people, who knows how permanent the effects can be. Many people just way overdo it, IMO, just as many do with alcohol.

As for banning, maybe your pot smoking has damaged your long term memory - I've always advocated legalizing pot, because I think the harm of prohibition outweighs the harm from marijuana itself. But then I think the same about heroin. It is also "safe" if it's pure and used responsibly. Unless you're allergic.

As for bike riding, I'd never make the claim that the danger is insignificant - not while we have all those entitled drivers on the roads.

[DrCaleb]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Virtually harmless, Andy. Not harmless. I agree there is no such thing as a harmless drug.

By virtually harmless I mean that it's harm to society and to most individuals is small to the point of being insiginificant. Millions of people drink caffeine everyday. I'm not a newshound but I've never heard of anyone dying from it.

It actually kills many kids and teens and young people every year in the form of 'energy drinks'. It's pretty easy to get a caffine overdoes that results in heart problems from those.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... drink.html
http://www.therecordherald.com/news/x36 ... iers-death
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 39740.html

[Prof_Chomsky]

Enough of the nanny state. Legalize EVERYTHING.
I’m not stupid, I know some drugs have societal costs, but that’s what taxes are for. Alcohol an cigarette taxes arguably (depending on your source) pay for more than they cost society to deal with in the form of accidents and health issues. Amsterdam has most drugs legalized and their abuse rates are lower than our own.

We’re adults. Legalize it all. Control it so it’s pharmaceutical grade. Price it accordingly and you save billions in enforcement, and reduce crime rates substantially in the process. The reason I don’t take heroine or coke isn’t that it’s illegal, it’s that I’m scared to death of the effects. That won’t change if it were available in a pharmacy, and the profits/taxes can be used for ethical use and treatment clinics.

Treat us like adults ffs.

[OnTheIce]

Prof_Chomsky Prof_Chomsky:

Enough of the nanny state. Legalize EVERYTHING.
I’m not stupid, I know some drugs have societal costs, but that’s what taxes are for. Alcohol an cigarette taxes arguably (depending on your source) pay for more than they cost society to deal with in the form of accidents and health issues. Amsterdam has most drugs legalized and their abuse rates are lower than our own.

We’re adults. Legalize it all. Control it so it’s pharmaceutical grade. Price it accordingly and you save billions in enforcement, and reduce crime rates substantially in the process. The reason I don’t take heroine or coke isn’t that it’s illegal, it’s that I’m scared to death of the effects. That won’t change if it were available in a pharmacy, and the profits/taxes can be used for ethical use and treatment clinics.

Treat us like adults ffs.

That would be fine if we were all adults, but we're not. Young people need direction. Telling an immature boy or girl that cocaine is legal, they don't have the mental fortitude that we adults have to make the smart choice. "It's legal so it must be OK".

Taxes on drugs don't come close to covering the costs they inflict on our system. Ontario is currently suing big tobacco for 50 billion for that very reason (Hypocritical if you ask me). Quebec is also suing for 60 billion.

Some people would love to legalize more drugs without any idea of long term costs to the public health system. Today, the leading cause of cancer deaths in men and women is lung cancer, almost always caused by smoking.

[andyt]

I'm not that scared of heroin's effects, just not that interested in them. Pure heroin, of proper dosage, is quite safe unless you happen to be allergic to it. Addiction isn't such a problem if you have access to a cheap supply.

I would love to have coca leaves to chew on - always wanted to try that.

But what about say crystal meth or crack? They don't sound very safe even if pure and of controlled dosage.

[Prof_Chomsky]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Prof_Chomsky Prof_Chomsky:

Enough of the nanny state. Legalize EVERYTHING.
I’m not stupid, I know some drugs have societal costs, but that’s what taxes are for. Alcohol an cigarette taxes arguably (depending on your source) pay for more than they cost society to deal with in the form of accidents and health issues. Amsterdam has most drugs legalized and their abuse rates are lower than our own.

We’re adults. Legalize it all. Control it so it’s pharmaceutical grade. Price it accordingly and you save billions in enforcement, and reduce crime rates substantially in the process. The reason I don’t take heroine or coke isn’t that it’s illegal, it’s that I’m scared to death of the effects. That won’t change if it were available in a pharmacy, and the profits/taxes can be used for ethical use and treatment clinics.

Treat us like adults ffs.

That would be fine if we were all adults, but we're not. Young people need direction. Telling an immature boy or girl that cocaine is legal, they don't have the mental fortitude that we adults have to make the smart choice. "It's legal so it must be OK".

Taxes on drugs don't come close to covering the costs they inflict on our system. Ontario is currently suing big tobacco for 50 billion for that very reason (Hypocritical if you ask me). Quebec is also suing for 60 billion.

Some people would love to legalize more drugs without any idea of long term costs to the public health system. Today, the leading cause of cancer deaths in men and women is lung cancer, almost always caused by smoking.

Again, it depends on your source and how it’s calculated.
According to the CBC:

“They estimate that, in Canada, the societal costs attributable to smoking for 1993 were approximately $11 billion, of which $3 billion was spent on direct health care costs such as hospitalization and physician time. The remaining $8 billion was due to lost productivity”

Today less people smoke than 1993. According to Physicians for a Smoke Free Canada the total revenue from Tobacco taxes is 7.5 billion. (these figures are inflation corrected)


17% of Canadians currently smoke according to the Canadian Cancer Society. The Lung society says 14%. Compared to 30% in 1990 according to Health Canada. (needed different sources because no one source had historic data)

Assume that every penny of lost productivity and health costs is 100% attributable to smoking (even though those studies often try to prove a point and inflate the number). If smoking rates have dropped by half since 1993, that 11 billion in costs would drop by half to about 6.5 Billion.. against 7.5 billion in revenue. That’s a profit to the country my friend…




And your argument about kids not knowing a drug is dangerous are not very well thought out. Today kids can readily get every drug on the street and most are cut with poison and aren't pure or safe. If you kill the illegal trade of hardcore drugs through legalization that avenue dries up and they have to go to the pharmacy, which will card you, and guarantee pure 'safer' drugs.




Since you seem to like the nanny state, let’s compare smoking costs against the costs of obesity and over eating.
According to the Canadian Obesity Network, the DIRECT costs of obesity on the health care system alone are 6.1 billion dollars. If you use the same ratio of lost productivity as smoking due to illness (diabetes, yummy), that adds another 16 billion dollars for a total of 22.1 billion a year in costs (that obesity, it doesn’t even include overweight people).
What taxes do we get on fattening food aside from sales tax? Fat people cost ME way more than smokers because smokers pay for themselves. And when I’m on a plane, or in an office or anywhere for that matter smokers don’t bother me because they are isolated. The same can’t be said for the giant guy oozing over my seat on the plane or on the bus or movie theatre.
People who choose to ‘abuse’ food can abuse healthy food too, so how do you even tax that? At least drugs can be directly taxed.

If you want to create the nanny state maybe you should focus on obesity. Food kills. Guess that's a drug then too, so we better pass a law that says you can only eat 2,000 calories a day.

[Prof_Chomsky]

andyt andyt:

But what about say crystal meth or crack? They don't sound very safe even if pure and of controlled dosage.

What about sniffing paint thinner, gasoline or aerosol cans?
According to the DEA most people use crystal meth and crack because they can't afford cocaine or other drugs. Legalization would fix that too.

[OnTheIce]

Prof_Chomsky Prof_Chomsky:

And your argument about kids not knowing a drug is dangerous are not very well thought out. Today kids can readily get every drug on the street and most are cut with poison and aren't pure or safe.

False.

Not every drug is available on the street. Remember, not all of Canada is one big city. Sure, there are areas of the Country where drugs are easy to come by, but by no means is ready access all over Canada. I know that where I live, a suburb outside Toronto the only drug easily available is weed....the rest you have to travel into Toronto for.

Prof_Chomsky Prof_Chomsky:

If you kill the illegal trade of hardcore drugs through legalization that avenue dries up and they have to go to the pharmacy, which will card you, and guarantee pure 'safer' drugs.

You won't kill the illegal trade at all so your point it moot. That's a myth you pro-legalization people like to throw around.

We have legalized cigarettes and booze yet we still have a booming underground economy for both.

You will not kill gangs or the mob by legalizing drugs.

Prof_Chomsky Prof_Chomsky:

If you want to create the nanny state maybe you should focus on obesity. Food kills. Guess that's a drug then too, so we better pass a law that says you can only eat 2,000 calories a day.

I am totally anti-nanny state and your point is almost laughable.

Eating is a necessity of life. Obesity is a problem, but unfortunately, people have to eat and due to the poor quality of food and the bad choices people make, we have the situation we have. I'm betting the total sales tax on food and beverages far exceeds that of the health care costs.

Drug use is simply a bad choice and not necessary for day to day life for the vast majority of Canadians.

[BartSimpson]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Studies have shown that people who smoke even one joint will die within 100 years.

Studies have also shown that the leading cause of death is birth.

[DrCaleb]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Studies have shown that people who smoke even one joint will die within 100 years.

Studies have also shown that the leading cause of death is birth.

Studies have shown that the leading cause of birth is alcohol.

[BartSimpson]

[Tricks]

Curtman Curtman:

andyt andyt:

Pot is certainly not virtually harmless. No drug is. But prohibition doesn't work, otherwise we should be moving to banning a dangerous drug like C2H6O.

Especially not ecstasy. Its users rapidly develop an affinity for awesome music.

Fixed.

[BartSimpson]

Prof_Chomsky Prof_Chomsky:

Enough of the nanny state. Legalize EVERYTHING.

I agree.

Except that I'd want it set that anyone using drugs would be cut off from all social sevices with the exception of voluntary drug rehab. If they want to quit then I can see helping them do so. But to use taxpayer money to sustain someone as a useless leech on society? Nope, not at all.

[Curtman]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Prof_Chomsky Prof_Chomsky:

Enough of the nanny state. Legalize EVERYTHING.

I agree.

Except that I'd want it set that anyone using drugs would be cut off from all social sevices with the exception of voluntary drug rehab. If they want to quit then I can see helping them do so. But to use taxpayer money to sustain someone as a useless leech on society? Nope, not at all.

Are we going to add alcohol, chocolate bars, cheeseburgers, softdrinks, etc. to that list? Or just anything that you classify as a "drug"?

[OnTheIce]

Curtman Curtman:

Are we going to add alcohol, chocolate bars, cheeseburgers, softdrinks, etc. to that list? Or just anything that you classify as a "drug"?

The common pot-head response.

Comparing food to illicit drugs. Nobody does it better.