[saturn_656]

andyt andyt:

Basically Ukraine has become a piece of meat while the two big dogs pull away at it.

Ukraine is more like an abused spouse. The EU is like the nice guy offers her a better life. Russia is the POS wife beater that takes a round out of her every time she tries to leave.

[andyt]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

andyt andyt:

Basically Ukraine has become a piece of meat while the two big dogs pull away at it.

Ukraine is more like an abused spouse. The EU is like the nice guy offers her a better life. Russia is the POS wife beater that takes a round out of her every time she tries to leave.

Way too one sided. There's a goodly percentage of Ukraine people who vehemently disagree with you, and they don't all have Stockholm syndrome. It's this simplistic prism that people view the situation thru that in part contributes to it. Also ignored are the anti-Russian laws passed by the unelected govt in Kyiv. The people in the east saw what revolution can accomplish in the Kyiv and decided that they wanted some of that too - just in another direction.

[saturn_656]

andyt andyt:

saturn_656 saturn_656:

andyt andyt:

Basically Ukraine has become a piece of meat while the two big dogs pull away at it.

Ukraine is more like an abused spouse. The EU is like the nice guy offers her a better life. Russia is the POS wife beater that takes a round out of her every time she tries to leave.

Way too one sided. There's a goodly percentage of Ukraine people who vehemently disagree with you, and they don't all have Stockholm syndrome. It's this simplistic prism that people view the situation thru that in part contributes to it.

I call it like I see it. Sometimes things in life just are that one sided. Ukraine has a history of taking abuse from Russia that goes back decades, maybe centuries.

[saturn_656]

andyt andyt:

Also ignored are the anti-Russian laws passed by the unelected govt in Kyiv. The people in the east saw what revolution can accomplish in the Kyiv and decided that they wanted some of that too - just in another direction.

Can't really fault the Ukraine for legislating against the Russians since, you know, they took to carving Ukraine up like a Christmas turkey.

[PostFactum]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

I call it like I see it. Sometimes things in life just are that one sided. Ukraine has a history of taking abuse from Russia that goes back decades, maybe centuries.

We have trouble with them since Russia was made.

[Winnipegger]

andy was trying to advocate violence. Now he wants to split the country. Did someone hack his account, or is he just a troll?

[andyt]

I couldn't understand why for instance Ukrainian soldiers would give up their amored vehicles to the insurgents. Turns out they were surrounded by citizens who made them do it. Those citizens don't feel abused by Russia, nor do many others in the east. What the EU offering goodies did was expose the fault lines in Ukraine. Ones that Putin then exploited - Putin saw this coming, while the EU did not. While Ukraine was more cohesive than Yugoslavia, it is cracking into the same ethnic sorts of divisions. This isn't all Russias doing, but the people of east Ukraine themselves as well. Partition might be the best solution here, so that not too much more blood is spilled. NATO countries can't now preach about the inviolability if borders when they acted in the exact opposite way in Yugoslavia.

[Zipperfish]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

Ukraine is more like an abused spouse. The EU is like the nice guy offers her a better life. Russia is the POS wife beater that takes a round out of her every time she tries to leave.

It's not the EU, it's the IMF. And the IMF is the doctor offering hope of a new life--if the patient survives the surgery.

[andyt]

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

andy was trying to advocate violence. Now he wants to split the country. Did someone hack his account, or is he just a troll?

Fuck off. The Ukrainian govt is doing exactly what I suggested they do earlier. Are you against that too? Are they advocating violence?

And the pres himself has said the east is probably lost.

[PostFactum]

andyt andyt:

I couldn't understand why for instance Ukrainian soldiers would give up their amored vehicles to the insurgents. Turns out they were surrounded by citizens who made them do it. Those citizens don't feel abused by Russia, nor do many others in the east. What the EU offering goodies did was expose the fault lines in Ukraine. Ones that Putin then exploited - Putin saw this coming, while the EU did not. While Ukraine was more cohesive than Yugoslavia, it is cracking into the same ethnic sorts of divisions. This isn't all Russias doing, but the people of east Ukraine themselves as well. Partition might be the best solution here, so that not too much more blood is spilled. NATO countries can't now preach about the inviolability if borders when they acted in the exact opposite way in Yugoslavia.

I was answering to your questions again and again - you don't hear me.

[Winnipegger]

CBC today: Ukraine tightens cordon around rebellious city

$1:

Thirty pro-Russia insurgents and four government troops were killed Monday in operations to expunge anti-government forces around the city of Slovyansk
...
Gunbattles on Monday around the city of 125,000
...
20 government troops were also injured during fighting in Slovyansk. He said about 800 pro-Russia forces in and around Slovyansk were deploying large-calibre weapons and mortars Monday.

Get it? Only 800 in a city of 125,000. That's less than 1% of the population; in one of the strongest "rebel" cities of east Ukraine. The people do not want this, but insurgents have heavy weapons.

[PostFactum]

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

CBC today: Ukraine tightens cordon around rebellious city

$1:

Thirty pro-Russia insurgents and four government troops were killed Monday in operations to expunge anti-government forces around the city of Slovyansk
...
Gunbattles on Monday around the city of 125,000
...
20 government troops were also injured during fighting in Slovyansk. He said about 800 pro-Russia forces in and around Slovyansk were deploying large-calibre weapons and mortars Monday.

Get it? Only 800 in a city of 125,000. That's less than 1% of the population; in one of the strongest "rebel" cities of east Ukraine. The people do not want this, but insurgents have heavy weapons.

Heavy weapons is not a problem. Problem is that the shoot from behind of woman, kids and old folks.

[Winnipegger]

I would prefer police, not military. Capture trouble makes like those in Odessa. They had rocks and Molotov cocktails, not heavy weapons. Police can deal with that. Arrest them, keep them in jail. They can't cause further trouble when they're in jail. And news reports state the pro-Russia "protestors" in Odessa were actual from Russia and Transnistria, not Ukrainian.

[andyt]

And the rest of the 125,000 all support the west, do they?

It was the bullshit that the insurgents were all just Russian agents, as PF would have it that made me say Ukraine needs to stand up - what you call advocating violence (Why are you not chastising htos govt troops for practicing violence?)

There is a lot of popular support for Russia in east Ukraine. The supporters have been much more engaged than those that support the west. This has to be recognized and taken into account. Ukraine isn't going back to what it once was.

@PF - I guess you did. But in that case, don't the people of the east have the same right of rebellion as those in Kiev?

[PostFactum]

My propose here is cruel, but will work. In front of separatists before attack, launch a signal rocket, after 30 seconds, everyone who will be still standing in sector with separatists after this time is recognized as Russian militant. Than shoot. After 3-5 episodes, people will stop taking money and standing between separatists and Ukrainian troops.