[CanadianJeff]

"Employees are entitled to the wage they agreed upon at the time of hire provided that they do the job they were hired to do. No more, no less!"

Then I guess that's where I respectfully say we have to agree to disagree. I think anyone working full time in this country who puts an honest effort in deserves to make a livable wage even at Wal-Mart.

Mind you it's understandable if it's not the kind of wage that you could support a few kids on as a single parent but you should at least be able to provide for yourself working full time.

[Lemmy]

Yogi Yogi:

Then you would be wrong! 'Union or no', If I hire on with a company, and we agree on a job description, at an agreed-upon wage, and both myself and my employer proceed to fulfill our end of the agreement, what right does either party have to arbitrarily change the agreement using any method, for any reason?

It's not an aribitray change, often. A guy doing a job is a better employee on day 100 than on day 10, and better on day 10 than on day 1. Should that employee not be entitled to a raise as his/her productivity improves? One's Marginal Revenue Product of Labour exceeds their wage rate after some period of time. There have been attempts by labour economists to measure how long it takes for the employer to "get in the gravy" on a minimum-wage earner. The studies I've read conclude that that point is reached in days, not months.

On the other hand, if revenues (sales) fall, then each employee's MRPL falls, even if that worker is getting better. In that case, economically speaking, the wage rate should be adjusted downward. It's hard to know what the future realities will be on the day you sign your contract.

[Brenda]

Walmart pays more than minimum wage. Not much, but they do.
Here, they pay the same as Zellers.

[ASLplease]

Yogi, I think you love unions more than you care to admit. You don't like arbitrary, unions don't like arbitrary change

[Yogi]

I will use my own experiences as an example. No, I have never belonged to a union, nor do I ever intend to as I maintain that unions are for 'lazy,and/or stupid people'.
I have been a business owner/sub-contractor mostly all of my working life. With the exception of the first few years right after school. I have employed and apprenticed several people over the years. As regards my employees, I paid attention to who was/wasn't doing their assigned/agreed jobs. Who was going 'above and beyond' and compensated accordingly. Certainly, most, eventually came to me stating " I think I'm worth more money than you are paying"! Some I agreed with and we negotiated a higher wage, others I disagreed with and told them why, and gave them the option of staying on at their current rate of pay, improving their performance, with the understanding that within a set period of time we would then sit down for another review. Some agreed, some didn't. Those who didn't, got a firm handshake, a fair reference and their final paycheque.
About 15 years ago, I brought my son into the business. He was 'green' and had to start at the bottom and WORK his way up. To be sure, he did not have an easy go of it! ( He's around here somewhere. Ask him! )

Along the way, we were hired to do a few jobs for the largest contracting co ( in our business) in Canada. We told them our rate and they accepted. When the jobs were completed, the company made us a very attractive financial offer to join them as employees. I was interested, but my son was not. I didn't feel that my son was yet able to 'run the show' by himself yet, so we continued on in our business. I did stay in touch with the other company. A couple years later, my son was experienced enough, as well, now interested in taking over. I sold my interests to him, and moved to the Edmonton area to work for the larger company as a supervisor. I sat with the President of the company, He made an offer, I made a counter-offer. A deal was struck. The provisio being that any future negotiations would be 'face to face' only between him and I. This is how we/I conduct business. We had an excellent working, and personal relationship for several years. My circumstances changed and I left his employ, but maintain a personal relationship with 'the company' and occasionally do sub-contract work for them, or 'over-flow' or some times when they need a hand or a particular expertise, even hourly work on the jobsite with the other employees. This 'un-named company' is non-union, and I can't ever see that changing.

[ASLplease]

Yogi, what you write of, sounds admirable and a bit inspiring.

$1:

unions are for 'lazy,and/or stupid people'.

It is management's job to screen their workforce. The stupid managers attempt to do it by using arbitrary and discriminatory practises. The lazy managers sit around and don't do dick but bitch and whine about the lazy and stupid workers.

[CanadianJeff]

The problem Yogi is not all employers are willing to negotiate like that.

Wal-mart isn't they feel that if you don't want to work for near min wage no matter how good you are at your job then you can just walk out that door and they will hire someone else for smaller wages.

I applaud any employer willing to sit down and talk honestly to an employee and it's a principle I embrace myself in regards to whom I am responsible for managing.

The problem is like I said that not all companies are willing to do this and in those cases the only way to raise the wage of one employee is to raise wages for all. Not something companies like Wal-mart like to do.

[Yogi]

CanadianJeff CanadianJeff:

The problem Yogi is not all employers are willing to negotiate like that.

Wal-mart isn't they feel that if you don't want to work for near min wage no matter how good you are at your job then you can just walk out that door and they will hire someone else for smaller wages.

I applaud any employer willing to sit down and talk honestly to an employee and it's a principle I embrace myself in regards to whom I am responsible for managing.

The problem is like I said that not all companies are willing to do this and in those cases the only way to raise the wage of one employee is to raise wages for all. Not something companies like Wal-mart like to do.

The problem is 'the only way to raise the wage of one employee is to raise the wages for all!

[ASLplease]

ask women what they think, I'm sure most would embrace the idea of the same pay for the same job.

[ASLplease]

having a union is like saying 'we'd like to have a collective agreement where we all get paid the same.....based on our collective worth" It's the 'collective worth' part that critics often forget to mention.

[Yogi]

ASLplease ASLplease:

having a union is like saying 'we'd like to have a collective agreement where we all get paid the same.....based on our collective worth" It's the 'collective worth' part that critics often forget to mention.

I must be too tired to comprehend your last two posts. I'll have another look at them tomorrow. 'night!

[commanderkai]

ASLplease ASLplease:

ask women what they think, I'm sure most would embrace the idea of the same pay for the same job.

If women are paid less for the same job...wouldn't that mean absolutely no women would me unemployed?

[OnTheIce]

ASLplease ASLplease:

That is very good advice for your daughter or my son. But what about the 1.2 million workers that currently work there? Do I start to think of them as something less than human because they made some bad choices in life?Personalally, I dont think that is what you are suggesting but you seem to be suggesting that they are not entitled to join and form unions like the rest of us.

No, but we as a society, can't run around forming unions with the illusion that they'll get a bunch more money in which they can live off. The increase is marginal at best.

These workers are entitled to join a union as much as Wal-Mart or Zellers are entitled to evaluate their business when the inflated costs of a union jump on board. There's a lot more involved than just increased wages when a union is formed within the workplace.

FWIW, I've worked within Wal-Mart and Zellers stores for the last 3-4 years as a 3rd part vendor. I've worked in unionized Zellers stores as well.

[ASLplease]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

ASLplease ASLplease:

That is very good advice for your daughter or my son. But what about the 1.2 million workers that currently work there? Do I start to think of them as something less than human because they made some bad choices in life?Personalally, I dont think that is what you are suggesting but you seem to be suggesting that they are not entitled to join and form unions like the rest of us.

No, but we as a society, can't run around forming unions with the illusion that they'll get a bunch more money in which they can live off. The increase is marginal at best.

In general, I would agree...a working wage will always be a working wage. However, a small increase would help these workers more than it would help me. Furthermore, of the 80 or so class action lawsuits against Walmart, many are about management knowingling engaging in intimidation tactics designed to get their employees to work off the clock. The is much more to be gained than just a marginal increase.

$1:

These workers are entitled to join a union as much as Wal-Mart or Zellers are entitled to evaluate their business when the inflated costs of a union jump on board. There's a lot more involved than just increased wages when a union is formed within the workplace.

I can sympathize with the challenge, implementing a union is much like implementing a quality system. There is a mountain of policy and procedure that needs to be debated and discussed so that it can replace the arbitrary and discriminatory decision making of the past. Some companies embrace the quality systems, but are fearful of loosing the ability to be arbitrary and discriminatory with the human resources management.

$1:

FWIW, I've worked within Wal-Mart and Zellers stores for the last 3-4 years as a 3rd part vendor. I've worked in unionized Zellers stores as well.

[/quote]

Thanks for sharing that. FWIW, I have worked as a professional in non-union environments. My beliefs in union stem from growing up in an industrial town. My family and friends live, eat and sh#t this stuff everyday, and it has been easy to support their views although my personal situation has always been different than theirs. When I was fresh out of school, I spent 18 months working in their world, so I have experienced first hand what they experience everyday.

Me? I am currently creating a business plan with a firm starting date of July 2010. I will not be hiring any employees, but expect to need some casual help from time to time. One of my guiding principles will be a belief that the people that work for me are important. I need them well paid and well appreciated so I can expect them to be ambassadors for my company.

[Brenda]

If you want that, you shouldn't want "casual" help. Those are the first to say no and the first to be kicked out.
"Casuals" are not well paid and not well appreciated. "Casuals" are donkeys that can come when ever YOU please, not when they need it.
"Casuals" ambassadors for your company? Give me a break.