[hurley_108]

RUEZ RUEZ:

hurley_108 hurley_108:

RUEZ RUEZ:

hurley_108 hurley_108:

RUEZ RUEZ:

hurley_108 hurley_108:

But the Conservatives don't give a rat's ass for outcomes. All they care about is their sound bites and ideology.

Sorta like the Liberals and Kyoto? It looked good, but didn't do a god damn thing.

We haven't bought any emissions credits from other countries, we haven't forced industry to curb emissions. Part of the perverse beauty of not doing anything is it doesn't cost anything. To date, no money has been wasted on Kyoto. Harper's blown who knows how much money sending cheques to people who don't pay anything for child care.

You want to talk about the Liberals wasting money?

Touche. But you brought up Kyoto, and as far as that versus the child care benefit, Kyoto cost us no money as a country and cost no person any lost opportunities. The Child Care benefit has seen I don't know how much money flow directly out of government coffers, and left many families still unable to pay for needed child care.

I understand that, but I was making a point about sound bites and ideology, and no outcomes. I could have substituted that for the gun registry which would have made my point even better.

Coulda woulda shoulda, but I do accept your point.

[hurley_108]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

hurley_108 hurley_108:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

djakeydd djakeydd:

nice clip Let's all admit it, homosexuality aside, all of Harper's crew are a bunch of fascist, rascist myopic bigots - sort of like most Albertans.

Harper is not a fascist.

I donno. If we ever see a fascist state emerge in North America, it'll almost certainly be a separate Alberta. There is a serious lack of respect in this province for the rights of minority groups, and a slavish devotion to the same party decade after decade. The voters here do not hold their elected officials to account in any way. And no, turfing McLellan doesn't count because she was just one of 28 seats. You can't really participate in turfing the Liberals when you barely elect any in teh first place.

I highly doubt it. It will more likely take root in a province that is used to and accepting of the heavy hand of government in their daily lives (hardly something one associates with Alberta and Albertans), like Ontario or Quebec.

What heavy hand would that be? Examples, please.

[mtbr]

hurley_108 hurley_108:

mtbr mtbr:

hurley_108 hurley_108:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

djakeydd djakeydd:

nice clip Let's all admit it, homosexuality aside, all of Harper's crew are a bunch of fascist, rascist myopic bigots - sort of like most Albertans.

Harper is not a fascist.

I donno. If we ever see a fascist state emerge in North America, it'll almost certainly be a separate Alberta. There is a serious lack of respect in this province for the rights of minority groups, and a slavish devotion to the same party decade after decade. The voters here do not hold their elected officials to account in any way. And no, turfing McLellan doesn't count because she was just one of 28 seats. You can't really participate in turfing the Liberals when you barely elect any in teh first place.

Just your opinion no facts to back it up. You also agree than it is okay to stereotype Albertans.

Facts like the fact that ten years aver Vriend won his case, homosexual right have still not been enshrined as directed by the supreme court. Facts like the fact that the provincial government is all too happy to trounce the rights of those with soft tissue injury to seek appropriate compensation for those injuries. Facts like the fact that we'll have had, by the next election, over forty years of one party rule in the legislature.

I'm not stereotyping Albertans. I'm observing a pattern of disrespect for minority rights on the part of our elected government and absolutely no attempt on the part of the voters to hold them to account for it.

With all those "facts " I wonder why nobody shows up to vote..lazy SOB's excuses..excuses ...excuses.

Maybe next time we should have the polls at Tim Hortons. I'm sure it takes more time to get a coffee and a Tim Bit than it does to cast a ballot.

[ShepherdsDog]

proof? you first...provide actual examples which would lead any rational person to see the development of a fascist state in Alberta. Perhaps you should learn what a fascism is before you bandy the term about in a such a cavalier fashion.

[hurley_108]

mtbr mtbr:

hurley_108 hurley_108:

mtbr mtbr:

hurley_108 hurley_108:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

djakeydd djakeydd:

nice clip Let's all admit it, homosexuality aside, all of Harper's crew are a bunch of fascist, rascist myopic bigots - sort of like most Albertans.

Harper is not a fascist.

I donno. If we ever see a fascist state emerge in North America, it'll almost certainly be a separate Alberta. There is a serious lack of respect in this province for the rights of minority groups, and a slavish devotion to the same party decade after decade. The voters here do not hold their elected officials to account in any way. And no, turfing McLellan doesn't count because she was just one of 28 seats. You can't really participate in turfing the Liberals when you barely elect any in teh first place.

Just your opinion no facts to back it up. You also agree than it is okay to stereotype Albertans.

Facts like the fact that ten years aver Vriend won his case, homosexual right have still not been enshrined as directed by the supreme court. Facts like the fact that the provincial government is all too happy to trounce the rights of those with soft tissue injury to seek appropriate compensation for those injuries. Facts like the fact that we'll have had, by the next election, over forty years of one party rule in the legislature.

I'm not stereotyping Albertans. I'm observing a pattern of disrespect for minority rights on the part of our elected government and absolutely no attempt on the part of the voters to hold them to account for it.

With all those "facts " I wonder why nobody shows up to vote..lazy SOB's excuses..excuses ...excuses.

Maybe next time we should have the polls at Tim Hortons. I'm sure it takes more time to get a coffee and a Tim Bit than it does to cast a ballot.

Nobody shows up to vote because they don't see anything wrong with it, which makes them complicit in it.

It may take more time to buy a coffee than vote when you have an accurate voter's list. They didn't have my wife or I on this list at our polling place, despite the fact that we filed taxes at our current residence last year and always check the box that says they can use our info for making a voter's list. So we had to fill out the form (they didn't even look at it or check our ID by the way, so we totally could have faked it and voted more than once) which took a while hunched over a school gym bench while trying to keep a toddler under control.

[hurley_108]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

proof? you first...provide actual examples which would lead any rational person to see the development of a fascist state in Alberta. Perhaps you should learn what a fascism is before you bandy the term about in a such a cavalier fashion.

Fascism is an authoritarian ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers the individual subordinate to the interests of the state, party or society as a whole.

I think it applies quite nicely. I've given my examples already, but let me make them more explicit in the context of this definition.

There's a general sentiment that we have to protect society as a whole from the threat posed by individual gays marrying each other.

There's a support evidenced by the lack of opposition to the insurance reforms that society as a whole suffers increased insurance premiums because individual soft tissue sufferers are claiming for their injuries, and a subtext beneath it that such victims are all frauds.

There were two specific ridings (Edmonton Centre and Cardston Taber Warner) in which campaigns were launched by the PCs to the effect that the people in those ridings would suffer if they didn't elect PCs. It worked in Cardston.

There's also a general lack of recognition that many individuals are having trouble coping with the pressures of the boom we're experiencing, but we're not touching the brake, and we're not enacting any sort of rent control, even so gentle a control as to institute a cap on how much you can increase someone's rent by.

And I'd say that 50% percent of the popular vote and 88% of teh seats qualifies as a mass movement.

So now it's your turn. Why does this definition NOT fit Alberta? How DOES it fit Ontario and Quebec?

[Wally_Sconce]

hurley_108 hurley_108:

mtbr mtbr:

hurley_108 hurley_108:

ridenrain ridenrain:

Why don't you just have some more beer & popcorn and shut the hell up.

I would, but we just had to pay a bunch of income tax on our beer and popcorn money, so we're out for a little while.

I will gladly take the rest of your beer and popcorn money. Never any under the liberal regime when I would of been eligible for some.

It's like this: With our pretty damn good, though with room for improvement, parental benefits, my wife was able to stay home for a year to look after our kid. We didn't need any of those cheques. We won't need any for some time to come. They just go into our general revenue, if you will, to be spent on our various expenses - the biggest of which is putting a roof over all our heads.

Am I going to give them up to someone else? No. Would I be sad if they disappeared so that someone who does need to put their kid in daycare can because $100/month won't cover it, but their $100 and mine and a few others' who don't need them either all put together would pay for a spot for them? No. Divided this money accomplishes nothing. Concentrated, we could really help a few people who need it. But the Conservatives don't give a rat's ass for outcomes. All they care about is their sound bites and ideology.

Divided, the money actually makes it to my pocket and others that apreciate it. The Liberal's institutionalized system would have been a big money pit. My son would be 30 years old before any of his funding trickles down to the common people.

[Mustang1]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

I realise that the point you made was aimed at riden (bless him!) and I agree that people should be held accountable.

So, I didn't in fact, write that I wanted it both ways. My point from the begnning.

$1:

I kind of disagree about 17 years being ancient history. If you look at the change in mainstream social views from 1991 to 2008, thee have been huge differences.
I don't know how old you are but I was well into my second career in 1991 (after 10 years in the military)and I can tell you that I have definitely been 're-educated', mostly not by my choice.
My views have changed, matured and I'm open to many ideas that I wasn't 17 years ago. That includes my views on gays, immigration, freedom of religion and sexual equality. Besides my own views I have been on numerous courses that have given me a new outlook on many communities within our society that I was quite ignorant about.
In all these areas mainstream views could not be more different than they were in 1991.
That was my point that you seem to have glossed over with your usual poetic prose.

You may disagree - that's your prerogative, but that doesn't alter the fact that many people would've interpreted those comments as bigoted nonsense in 1991. This is retrospective nonsense and intellectual relativism at its worse - many might've changed their views in 17 years, but that doesn't mean that the original wasn't somehow flawed or somehow subject to a majority opinion. Seventeen years in this paticalur temporal context is not that significant - it's not like we're judging someone from 1776 or 1889 or even 1914 from a contemporary world view, we're judging from the SAME world view, the SAME educational system, the SAME social mores and the SAME cultural realities. This guy was (and I'll even grant him past tense) a bigot. From a historical perspective, bigotry against homosexuality (oh, and by the way, its certainly fair game for Third Reich historians to hold the National Socialists accountable for their actions against homosexuals - explain how that passes, but Lukiwski gets a pass) a uncultured, unenlightened twit.

I understand that you may have altered your particular world view, but that doesn't mean it wasn't originally questionable. I'm certainly not passing judgment, but just because you had the intellectual courage to readdress your perspective doesn't mean that uttering anti-Gay statements in the early 90s wasn't a form of bigotry.

By the way, "mainstream" doesn't equal legitimate. I'm not subject to Jefferson's tyranny of the majority when it comes to intellectualism - if that was the case, there would be no abolitionists, no suffragists, no freedom riders, no Civil Rights movement and no equal treatment for gays before the law.

[ShepherdsDog]

hurley_108 hurley_108:

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

proof? you first...provide actual examples which would lead any rational person to see the development of a fascist state in Alberta. Perhaps you should learn what a fascism is before you bandy the term about in a such a cavalier fashion.

Fascism is an authoritarian ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers the individual subordinate to the interests of the state, party or society as a whole.

I think it applies quite nicely. I've given my examples already, but let me make them more explicit in the context of this definition.

There's a general sentiment that we have to protect society as a whole from the threat posed by individual gays marrying each other.

There's a support evidenced by the lack of opposition to the insurance reforms that society as a whole suffers increased insurance premiums because individual soft tissue sufferers are claiming for their injuries, and a subtext beneath it that such victims are all frauds.

There were two specific ridings (Edmonton Centre and Cardston Taber Warner) in which campaigns were launched by the PCs to the effect that the people in those ridings would suffer if they didn't elect PCs. It worked in Cardston.

There's also a general lack of recognition that many individuals are having trouble coping with the pressures of the boom we're experiencing, but we're not touching the brake, and we're not enacting any sort of rent control, even so gentle a control as to institute a cap on how much you can increase someone's rent by.

And I'd say that 50% percent of the popular vote and 88% of teh seats qualifies as a mass movement.

So now it's your turn. Why does this definition NOT fit Alberta? How DOES it fit Ontario and Quebec?

sorry your evidence doesn't foot the bill.

[mtbr]

hurley_108 hurley_108:

mtbr mtbr:

hurley_108 hurley_108:

ridenrain ridenrain:

Why don't you just have some more beer & popcorn and shut the hell up.

I would, but we just had to pay a bunch of income tax on our beer and popcorn money, so we're out for a little while.

I will gladly take the rest of your beer and popcorn money. Never any under the liberal regime when I would of been eligible for some.

It's like this: With our pretty damn good, though with room for improvement, parental benefits, my wife was able to stay home for a year to look after our kid. We didn't need any of those cheques. We won't need any for some time to come. They just go into our general revenue, if you will, to be spent on our various expenses - the biggest of which is putting a roof over all our heads.

Am I going to give them up to someone else? No. Would I be sad if they disappeared so that someone who does need to put their kid in daycare can because $100/month won't cover it, but their $100 and mine and a few others' who don't need them either all put together would pay for a spot for them? No. Divided this money accomplishes nothing. Concentrated, we could really help a few people who need it. But the Conservatives don't give a rat's ass for outcomes. All they care about is their sound bites and ideology.

People have to get out of the 9 to 5 mentality , it's a 24 hr workday parents can work opposite shifts therefore institutionalized daycare is not needed saving the taxpayer a lot of money.

Plenty of work out there make some sacrifices for the sake of your kids evening shift or weekends won't kill people.

I did it and I have yet to pay a cent to daycare or a babysitter. That extra money from the Conservatives would have been great since one of us was only working part-time for most of that decade. I want my beer and popcorn money.

[Benoit]

Perhaps Likowsky should come out with his repress/latent homosexual orientation.

[ShepherdsDog]

Do you feel much better about yourself for having done so?

[romanP]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

sorry your evidence doesn't foot the bill.

Wow. Such a scathing rebuttal. How will hurley ever counter it?

[ShepherdsDog]

Well unlike you I can turn the asshole mode off, something you seem to be stuck in.

[ShepherdsDog]

I reread that and thought that someone might misconstrue what I said, and thought I should edit it. But, in a moment of sober second thought .....naw, it's likely a pretty apt description of you on a few levels.