[Zipperfish]

stratos stratos:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

stratos stratos:

This is a problem and as of yet has no perfect solution, yes there have been innocent people put to death. With the discovery and use of DNA matching it has become a lot more unlikely that an innocent person will be sentenced to death then say 20yrs ago. As science and tech. incresse in ways of indentifing criminals from the evidence they leave behind I, to a point, feel more comfortable with imposeing the death sentence. As for the increese sentences of death I think it shows that us as a society are stating we are sick and tired of allowing such persons to go on living after they have willfuly taken anothers life.

Did you support the death penalty prior to the advent of DNA evidence?

Yes I did and freely admited it was not a perfect system and still admit it is not perfect.

Then DNA doesn't really have a lot to do with it, from your point of view.

I could buy into the death penalty if the judge and/or jury suffered the death penalty in the event a person executed was later exonerated. That seems fair, since execution of an innocent man is essentially first-degree murder. Also, judhges and juries would be a little more careful in their deliberations.

[andyt]

Except they would never be exonerated. Too many innocents alive in jail for the Innocence Project to ever get around to the dead ones. Plus the justice system would be understandably reluctant to take up such a case.

Stratos it out to lunch on the DNA thing. Somebody else's DNA fingerprints on a shell casing can establish innocence, but having somebody's traces on a shell casing isn't 100% proof that they fired the shot that killed the victim.

[Zipperfish]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

$1:

Jihadi: I want to kill everyone who opposes Islam!

Leftist: You mean you're upset with the economic injustice of the capitalist system and you want to speak out about income inequalites?

Jihadi: No! I want to make you bow down and accept allah as the one, true god or else I want to behead you!

Leftist: Oh, I see now. You're upset with the systematic racism of the upper classes who oppress the common man.

Jihadi: No, damn you! I want you to allow us to impose sharia law on your country or else I want you to die!

Leftist: Yes, it's true, the 1% are unfairly hoarding their wealth and if only we could raise the minimum wage and implement a tax structure that makes the wealthy pay their fair share we'd all be happy!

You could turn this into a pretty funny Monty Python skit if you kept it going.

$1:

I can totally understand how the left can frustrate the hell out of a radical jihadist when he can't even behead someone and get the left to recognize that he did it because of his religion.

The jihadists are mostly arch-conservatives so I imagine they would have a difficult time understanding liberals. They have more of a philosophical similarity to groups like the English Defence League. I'm sure those two groups completely understand each other's motivations.

EDL "likes" on Facebook apparently increased five-fold overnight since this incident--to the joy of EDL and Islamists, I would presume. They both get the fight they want.

[Zipperfish]

andyt andyt:

Except they would never be exonerated. Too many innocents alive in jail for the Innocence Project to ever get around to the dead ones. Plus the justice system would be understandably reluctant to take up such a case.

Exactly. They believ in the death penalty...just not enough to put their own asses on the line for it. I know, of course, it's an innately unworkable idea. But since the judge and the jury making the finding of guilty and ortdering teh death penalty have no repercussions of their actions one way or the other, I oppose the death penalty.

Well judge said "Guilty" in a make-believe trial
Slapped the Sheriff on the back with a smile
and said "Supper's waiting at home and I gotta get to it."

[BartSimpson]

Yet another development in the original story:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ead_module

MI5 was surveilling these mutts for months and did nothing about them. That's comforting.

[stratos]

$1:

I could buy into the death penalty if the judge and/or jury suffered the death penalty in the event a person executed was later exonerated. That seems fair, since execution of an innocent man is essentially first-degree murder. Also, judhges and juries would be a little more careful in their deliberations.

Yet they the judge and jury are basing it off of what evidence is avalible. You seem to feel no one deserves the death penalty at all ever. So you are then fine with killers continueing to kill while in jail. That these killers may get out in the future to kill again either by escape or parole. As I've already stated there are cases where the death penalty should not be given but there are times when it should be given. The two in the UK are prime examples of when I feel it should be given.

[stratos]

$1:

Stratos it out to lunch on the DNA thing. Somebody else's DNA fingerprints on a shell casing can establish innocence, but having somebody's traces on a shell casing isn't 100% proof that they fired the shot that killed the victim.

And I never said it was the sole cause to convict it along with other forms of forensic material combined with investigation working together gives as clear a picture of who did the crime as we can get at this time. I only backed up my DNA example when you said that it could not be used in a murder case. The examples I gave have been used before. As time goes on and other forms become avalible the prosses will get even better. As long as it is not abused and or manipulated. Like has been found out in some cases from corinor reports.

[BartSimpson]

From the article I posted a moment ago:

$1:

Residents said the former University of Greenwich student was handing out leaflets encouraging locals to support rebels in Syria.

Okay: Does anyone have any lingering doubts that the rebels in Syria are NOT the 'good guys'?

The West is not gaining a damned thing by helping them!

[Zipperfish]

stratos stratos:

Yet they the judge and jury are basing it off of what evidence is avalible. You seem to feel no one deserves the death penalty at all ever. So you are then fine with killers continueing to kill while in jail. That these killers may get out in the future to kill again either by escape or parole. As I've already stated there are cases where the death penalty should not be given but there are times when it should be given. The two in the UK are prime examples of when I feel it should be given.

I just feel more need to prevent the state's execution of innocent men than I do to kill killers. I don't share Andy's second objection to the death penalty. I wouldn't have any compunction killing killers if I had more faith in the justice system to differentiate the guilty from the not guilty.

But I wouldn't kill killers because they deserved it. Or to punish them. I would kill them simply because it is the easiest way to remove the threat. I don't punish a wasp for stinging me. I just squish it.

[BartSimpson]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

$1:

Jihadi: I want to kill everyone who opposes Islam!

Leftist: You mean you're upset with the economic injustice of the capitalist system and you want to speak out about income inequalites?

Jihadi: No! I want to make you bow down and accept allah as the one, true god or else I want to behead you!

Leftist: Oh, I see now. You're upset with the systematic racism of the upper classes who oppress the common man.

Jihadi: No, damn you! I want you to allow us to impose sharia law on your country or else I want you to die!

Leftist: Yes, it's true, the 1% are unfairly hoarding their wealth and if only we could raise the minimum wage and implement a tax structure that makes the wealthy pay their fair share we'd all be happy!

You could turn this into a pretty funny Monty Python skit if you kept it going.

That's not a bad idea!

[Thanos]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

From the article I posted a moment ago:

$1:

Residents said the former University of Greenwich student was handing out leaflets encouraging locals to support rebels in Syria.

Okay: Does anyone have any lingering doubts that the rebels in Syria are NOT the 'good guys'?

The West is not gaining a damned thing by helping them!

A fine point that keeps escaping warhawks like John McCain and Lindsey Graham, who keep accusing President Obama of cowardice for not supporting the rebels to the full extent of American military power.

[Zipperfish]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Yet another development in the original story:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ead_module

MI5 was surveilling these mutts for months and did nothing about them. That's comforting.

Apparently he got into a scuffle with police after claiming that he had the right to behead anyone who insults Islam. I can't imagine why he drew the attention of MI5. Given England's rather onerous "hate laws" one wonders why such a comment could not be construed as hate speech and why charges were not laid.

I'm sure there will be an inquiry, although I do sympathize a bit with MI5--they are geared, I'm sure, to detecting large operations resulting in large numbers of civilian casualties. I doubt they have the manpower to be able to reliably track small-scale attacks such as these.

[Zipperfish]

Thanos Thanos:

A fine point that keeps escaping warhawks like John McCain and Lindsey Graham, who keep accusing President Obama of cowardice for not supporting the rebels to the full extent of American military power.

The scary thing about teh Syria rebels is this is the way they act when they're trying to be on their best behaviour.

[BartSimpson]

Thanos Thanos:

A fine point that keeps escaping warhawks like John McCain and Lindsey Graham, who keep accusing President Obama of cowardice for not supporting the rebels to the full extent of American military power.

John McCain, Lindsey Graham, and Obama are likewise not the friends of the American people. But at least Obama is honest when he says,

$1:

“I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.”

The quote comes from page 261 of the paperback edition of The Audacity of Hope.

[BartSimpson]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Apparently he got into a scuffle with police after claiming that he had the right to behead anyone who insults Islam. I can't imagine why he drew the attention of MI5. Given England's rather onerous "hate laws" one wonders why such a comment could not be construed as hate speech and why charges were not laid.

Because he's a muslim, that's why. Had anyone else said the same thing you know the Brits would have him in the dock so fast his head would spin. But the muslims get a pass on pretty much anything they want to say.

Like these two mutts on the PIA flight today, you watch and see, they'll get cut loose or let off easy for doing something that would have you or I locked away in a secret prison for the rest of our lives.