[desertdude]

desertdude desertdude:

To put in context lets say the few million recent immigrants to Canada, say they now want their own state now and want to carve up Canada. Would you agree to it ?

[Zipperfish]

This site seems not bad actually.

http://www.merip.org/primer-palestine-israel-arab-israeli-conflict-new

[RaymondCA]

desertdude desertdude:

This could very well be the best idea of this century

Or move them to North Korea, when all people there starved...

[BRAH]

Jimmy Carter calls for recognizing terror group Hamas

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/08/05/carter-israel-hamas/13640905/
__

[N_Fiddledog]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

This site seems not bad actually.

http://www.merip.org/primer-palestine-israel-arab-israeli-conflict-new

It's helpful. I like it in conjunction with this one:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... mftoc.html

So I get both sides.

[Zipperfish]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

This site seems not bad actually.

http://www.merip.org/primer-palestine-israel-arab-israeli-conflict-new

It's helpful. I like it in conjunction with this one:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... mftoc.html

So I get both sides.

No, you're only getting one side.

[Goober911]

http://time.com/3086424/israel-gaza-hamas-idf/

A high Israeli troop death toll in Gaza, with inconclusive results, reminds some of a "severe sense of failure" after a 2006 ground war

Sixty-four Israeli soldiers were killed in Gaza over the past three weeks—more than six times the 10 lost in Israel’s 2008 incursion into the Palestinian territory. The Gaza incursion “revealed worrisome shortcomings in the Israel Defense Forces in battle readiness and management,”the Israeli daily Haaretz laments. The chairman of the Knesset’s Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee is vowing to investigate both diplomatic and military failures, including the use of a poorly-armored personnel carrier in which seven Israeli soldiers were killed by a single missile last month. Military experts also say the IDF was generally “operating from an old playbook and [was] not fully prepared for a more sophisticated, battle-ready adversary.”

Other Israeli politicians are also asking “why the extent of the Hamas tunnel system into Israel was either not known or not prepared for better,” the New York Times reports, which adds that the tunnels were “a psychological and tactical surprise.”

Israelis may be angry and frustrated. But they shouldn’t be shocked. Israel has been here before.

Eight years ago, Israel mounted a ground offensive against Hizballah in southern Lebanon. In that operation, Israeli soldiers discovered that the Iranian-backed Shi’ite group came equipped with sophisticated weapons, training and tactics. “They are trained and highly qualified,” an Israeli soldier told the Times that year. “All of us were kind of surprised.” Israel lost 121 soldiers in that conflict, widely considered a failure that produced months of soul-searching within the country’s leadership.

[Goober911]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

This site seems not bad actually.

http://www.merip.org/primer-palestine-israel-arab-israeli-conflict-new

It's helpful. I like it in conjunction with this one:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... mftoc.html

So I get both sides.

No, you're only getting one side.

3 sides- one, the other and then the facts.
The last is the hardest to find.

[N_Fiddledog]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

This site seems not bad actually.

http://www.merip.org/primer-palestine-israel-arab-israeli-conflict-new

It's helpful. I like it in conjunction with this one:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... mftoc.html

So I get both sides.

No, you're only getting one side.

Why? You believe they're both objective?

Kind of. They both appear to be making an effort. The Jewish one gives you references by number like Wikipedia.

But no, try this. Go into the refugee sections of both.

The Jewish one finds the details that show Jews wanting to offer to let the Arabs stay, and join in running the new country. Believe it or not that side of the story exists with some factual support. In fact your leftist telling of the tale acknowledges it, but believes it to be minimal, and immediately offers a tale of some alleged massacre by Jews on Arabs without offering reference or details even though few will have heard of it.

So it's good to know both sides, if only because if you get into an argument you won't get any surprises. I'll Google that massacre story eventually.

[Goober911]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Why? You believe they're both objective?

Kind of. They both appear to be making an effort. The Jewish one gives you references by number like Wikipedia.

But no, try this. Go into the refugee sections of both.

The Jewish one finds the details that show Jews wanting to offer to let the Arabs stay, and join in running the new country. Believe it or not that side of the story exists with some factual support. In fact your leftist telling of the tale acknowledges it, but believes it to be minimal, and immediately offers a tale of some alleged massacre by Jews on Arabs without offering reference or details even though few will have heard of it.

So it's good to know both sides, if only because if you get into an argument you won't get any surprises. I'll Google that massacre story eventually.

Search terms
1948 israeli war independence massacres committed by israel

https://www.google.ca/search?q=israeli+ ... S:official

I think one you may looking for is this one.

http://www.deiryassin.org/mas.html

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... assin.html

[desertdude]

Goober911 Goober911:

3 sides- one, the other and then the facts.
The last is the hardest to find.

Well you can look at both sides of the story and pick events that are narrated in both and filter out the rest and you can at least get a partial sense of the truth. Like in the example you posted. Was there a village called Deir Yassin - Yes, were their Arab civilians living in it - yes, was it attacked by the Israelis - yes. Does it exist today or part of Palestine or any Arabs living there - No. Conclusion, an arab village was attacked by the Israelis and wiped off the face of the planet. Rest of the details can be argued but you have the big important ones to formulate an opinion.

[N_Fiddledog]

I've been reading about how the "innocent civilian" statistics have been massaged in Gaza. One of the ways they are manipulated is Gazans who complain are purged and added to the innocent civilians killed by Israel stats.

$1:

Angry Palestinians Attack Hamas Official Over Gaza Destruction

Palestinian Arab sources said Tuesday that Gaza residents attacked Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri Saturday evening, near the Shifa Hospital.

Abu Zuhri had arrived at the hospital for an interview with a news outlet.

The residents blamed Hamas for the death of family members and for destruction of their homes. Armed Hamas terrorists from the Izzedine al-Kassam Brigades extricated Abu Zuri and arrested the angry residents.

Arabic website vetogate.com said that reporters in Gaza are well aware of the incident but are afraid to report it, because Hamas's security agency could go after them if they do.

A week ago, Palestinian sources reported that over 30 Palestinians were executed by Hamas, most of them in the Shejaiya neighborhood. Hamas claimed that they were collaborators with Israel.

Channel 10 said that Hamas executed 20 residents of Shejaiya who had dared demonstrate against Hamas.

Rockets were fired at Israel from next to Shifa Hospital during the fighting in Gaza, and Hamas's leadership hid under it.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/ ... -GS1kgdTiZ

Ask yourself this...

You've seen those stats of Gazan dead: When was the last time you saw Hamas fighters on one of those lists?

They always make sure you know how many Israeli soldiers died in relation to civilians. Where are the stats for Hamas fighters? What do you think the chances are such things exist and the Israelis might have got one or two?

[Goober911]

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... ic_opinion

Strategically, this is about neither missiles nor tunnels. It is, at its heart, like most aspects of Israel's long struggle with the Palestinians, about the terms by which the people of Palestine will get the state that is theirs by every right and precept of international law and decency. Therefore, Israel's action has to be assessed in terms of whether or not it will help or hurt its own standing in that negotiation, in which both sides participate by virtue of their daily actions whether there's a formal negotiating table in place or not. And for all the reasons cited above, it can only hurt. Further, it must be asked whether the bloodshed in Gaza will make it more or less likely that the world will embrace Palestinian efforts to claim independence with or without Israeli cooperation. What is more, even if Hamas is weakened by the actions of the past few weeks, and the world (including perhaps Hamas) realizes the benefits of allowing the Palestinian Authority's current leaders to take the lead on behalf of the Palestinian people, that transfer to a more legitimate leadership takes away one of Israel's favorite excuses for not making progress toward an agreement. Absent Hamas and absent the divisions it brought, you have a more unified and internationally acceptable Palestinian regime.

The situation on the ground in Gaza in the wake of the violence of this past month does not help much to identify a winner or a loser from this knot of absolutes and moral ambiguities, rights and violations, human needs and political agendas. Israel can rightly claim to have inflicted great damage on Hamas, destroying rockets and tunnel complexes and exposing their cowardly and reckless tactics for what they are. Hamas can claim to have won simply because they survived and will live to fight another day, in that instance with a new army of recruits inflamed into action by this last war.

Such claims aside, the reality is that it is almost certainly more true that both sides lost than it is that either won. Israel's standing internationally is further damaged, as is whatever slight credibility Hamas may have had as an advocate for the Palestinian people. It will cost billions to rebuild Gaza. The economic crater created by the conflict will harm both sides.

[ShepherdsDog]

Bestest Hamburger Soup

Ingredients:

2 lbs ground beef
1/2 teaspoon salt
1/4 teaspoon pepper
1/4 teaspoon oregano
1/4 teaspoon basil
1/8 teaspoon seasoning salt
1 (2 ounce) package onion soup mix (for 3 or 4 servings)
6 cups boiling water
1 (8 ounce) can tomato sauce
1 tablespoon soy sauce
1 cup celery, sliced
1/4 cup celery leaves
1 cup sliced carrot
1/3 cup dried split peas
1 cup elbow macaroni
grated parmesan cheese

Directions:

1 In a large saucepan, brown meat, drain excess fat.
2 Add salt, pepper, oregano, basil, seasoned salt, and onion soup mix.
3 Stir in boiling water, tomato sauce, and soy sauce.
4 Cover and simmer for about 15 minutes.
5 Meanwhile, prepare celery, celery leaves, and carrots; Then add to simmering mixture with split peas and continue to cook for 30 minutes.
6 Add macaroni and simmer for 30 minutes longer, adding more water if necessary and stirring occasionally.
7 Serve sprinkled with Parmesan cheese over individual servings.
8 To freeze: place soup in a rigid container and freeze. To reheat: remove from freezer and thaw. Place soup in saucepan and heat, stirring, until hot.

$1:

the people of Palestine will get the state that is theirs by every right and precept of international law and decency.

Oh yeah, there's this place right next to Israel, that comprises 85% of the former British Mandate of Palestine, where 3/4 of the population claims to be 'Palestinian'. It's called Jordan....Israel occupied the West Bank only after the Jordanians and other Arab nations tried yet again to drive the Jews into the sea. Back to the cooking.

[desertdude]

A little further away from there is a place called Europe where majority of todays Israelis came from pre-independance, maybe they should go back there.

Also calling bullshit on the 3/4 Palestinian thing, A lot of Palestinians were granted Jordanian citizenship and close to 2 million refugees but still no where close to 3/4. I know many Jordanians none of them claim to be Palestinian, except the few who have Jordanian citizenship now.

Oh and nice of you, the self claimed Zionist to join the thread after 83 pages, also couldn't help yourself but to sprinkle a little pushed into the sea lame rhetoric in there as well, eh. Although stopped just shy of the bit that if Israel had its way it would claim everything from the Nile to the Euphrates.

I think we are way beyond that, even the Israeli propaganda machine has stopped using the pushed into the sea and holocaust sympathy card.

Anyways nice to have you back, would be refreshing to hear your Zionistic views and irrelevant recipes.