[DerbyX]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Bollocks. I just believe that our efforts in Afghanistan are better served by the RCR than Rogers Video clerks.

Like I said. A knee jerk reaction that failed to understand MBs argument. He wasn't saying that rogers clerks should be thrown into combat although many former clerks are doing just that.

Hes taking the opinion that all Canadians are equally Canadian and each does an important job in their own way.

You want to twist it around to say that anybody not saying all military members are better then everybody else is disrespecting them.

An emotional argument, not a logical one.

[EyeBrock]

Mad_Bomber Mad_Bomber:

I dont think the western armys of the world are defending point of view that the more dangerous your job the more important you become.

No but we do need combat soldiers in Afghanistan, not video clerks. Your point?

[commanderkai]

Mad_Bomber Mad_Bomber:

I have never said they were interchangeable, just that one does not have more value than the other. A video store clerk’s job is less dangerous, that is why he is making $10.50 an hour. A soldier’s job is more dangerous overseas which is why he gets, Danger Pay, HLTA, Pre Deployment Leave, Post Deployment Leave and decompression in a 5 star resort in Cyprus for a week. If you are arguing that a soldier has more worth than a civilian then you must also argue that a RMS Clerk has less value then an Infanteer, or that someone from JTF2 has more worth than the same Infanteer.

But there is value. For example, the President of the United States has basically a small army defending him (The Secret Service) on top of normal police and military units. The fact is, those Secret Service agents have devoted their lives to defend the President due to his value.

Even on smaller levels, police officers are there to serve and protect the community from dangerous threats, even if it means putting their lives on the line.

Parents will commonly put their own lives in danger for their children. So on and so forth.

The examples can go on and on for a long time. But individuals as well as society do create a pecking order of value. Soldiers might be more important than a store clerk because of the choice the soldier made, and the fact that the soldier made a willing choice to risk his life for that store clerk, and as such, we (supposedly) reward soldiers better in society than store clerks.

On a personal level, parents protect their children, brothers protect their sisters.

This isn't an equal society, some people, on both a personal and a societal level, will be considered more important.

[EyeBrock]

DerbyX DerbyX:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Bollocks. I just believe that our efforts in Afghanistan are better served by the RCR than Rogers Video clerks.

Like I said. A knee jerk reaction that failed to understand MBs argument. He wasn't saying that rogers clerks should be thrown into combat although many former clerks are doing just that.

Hes taking the opinion that all Canadians are equally Canadian and each does an important job in their own way.

You want to twist it around to say that anybody not saying all military members are better then everybody else is disrespecting them.

An emotional argument, not a logical one.

Derby, I know you think bus drivers and combat soldiers have an equal weight in society, but hey! Society, bus driver school and the Canadian Army don’t agree.

It takes two weeks to train a bus driver. He/ she can be as fat as can be, or as thick as fuck.

The infantry soldier takes a few more months to train, can hack carrying a Bergen weighing 75% of their body weight at 6000 ft and 40 C.

Do the math here.

[DerbyX]

Doesn't make anybodies opinion less valid, their votes worth less, their importance in the world less, or their level of Canadianess less.

Are you worth less or less important because you are a student then a working professional paying the taxes that enable you to get government loans (assuming you get OSAP) or subsidized education?

[DerbyX]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Derby, I know you think bus drivers and combat soldiers have an equal weight in society, but hey! Society, bus driver school and the Canadian Army don’t agree.

It takes two weeks to train a bus driver. He/ she can be as fat as can be, or as thick as fuck.

The infantry soldier takes a few more months to train, can hack carrying a Bergen weighing 75% of their body weight at 6000 ft and 40 C.

Do the math here.

I think society sides with my opinion that all Canadians are equal.

As for using training level as a measure well then there are many more examples including my vocation that requires more training then a few months and the fitness thing? Really? Is that part of your argument? Really?

[EyeBrock]

Where did I say their opinion was less valid et al?

Simple facts. The RCR guys fighting and dying are making more of a sacrifice than the bus driver or video store clerk. Is it that difficult to suss out?

[EyeBrock]

Mad_Bomber Mad_Bomber:

I completely agree, no one in their right mind would argue otherwise. I am just saying that just because the video clerk decides to not join the military he does not become less important than the soldier.

The thing is its a really idiotic argument when you get down to it, of course the job of video clerk (something you can master in less than a month) is not as important the job a soldier (who takes years to become an expert). What I am saying is the person not the job is the same. However some people confuse the two and think that the person’s job reflects who they are as a person. That is when people start saying that this person is more important than that person, and then you start to create a class structure. I think this is where we became mixed up. We started viewing the job and the person as one entity.

I don't think I ever said that did I?

[DerbyX]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Where did I say their opinion was less valid et al?

Simple facts. The RCR guys fighting and dying are making more of a sacrifice than the bus driver or video store clerk. Is it that difficult to suss out?

Actually that was meant for CMK but it also fits.

First off, sacrifice isn't the entire issue else lumberjacks beat us all.

$1:

The 10 most dangerous jobs
Occupation Fatalities per 100,000
Timber cutters 117.8
Fishers 71.1
Pilots and navigators 69.8
Structural metal workers 58.2
Drivers-sales workers 37.9
Roofers 37
Electrical power installers 32.5
Farm occupations 28
Construction laborers 27.7
Truck drivers 25

So what if video clerks aren't making more of a sacrifice. They didn't sign up for that did they and in all likelihood are a teenager who might one day join the forces.

The fact we are holding is that they are equally Canadian. We aren't demeaning the military. You are holding our argument is. Not the same thing and a good example of a logical fallacy.

[EyeBrock]

Hey mad, I've done quite a few crap jobs in my past. I look down at no-one.
But not everybody can do what our guys are doing in Afgahnistan, that's the point really.

[commanderkai]

Mad_Bomber Mad_Bomber:

I understand and agree with that, and its fine when it is your choice. If you look up to someone because you choose to value them over another thats ok, but dont look down at someone because you value them less.

I agree for the most part. But I can't exactly not look down on the people who had the chance to make it, and yet blew it due to their own choices (alcohol, drug abuse, things like that)

[EyeBrock]

All pigs are equal?

[DerbyX]

George Orwell reference?

[EyeBrock]

Well, why not? Better than a George Galloway one.

[EyeBrock]

Well, if you were having to recruit any person for any job, you would realise that all pigs are not equal.
This is not to say that all people do not have a role.
It's just facing the obvious. Some people are more capable than others.
Or should we follow that great success of Chairman Mao's China?
Lets hire people for jobs they can’t hack ?
Is this the result of Canadian schools making everybody a winner at events? Unrealistic views on peoples capabilities?
Great concept at grade school.
Not so good when the Taliban are shooting the shit out of you.