[DerbyX]

lily lily:

Next door means litereally "next door".

Also - if she didn't hear anything odd - because the neighbour exxagerated the noise... please explain why the noise of the cops kicking in the door didn't cause her any alarm.

Besides - you figure the kid was traumatized and subdued - that the kids over-reacted. Any parent knows it's not the noise that makes you check what the little darlings are up to.... it's the quiet that immediately follows.

No it doesn't. Its fair to say next door in that statement.

Ever kicked in a door? It is not very loud.

You are assuming she was able to hear the noise not me. I simply said she was close enough that it was a reasonably safe distance.

[DerbyX]

Heavy_Metal Heavy_Metal:

Derby, you have fought a uselesly long and completely pointless battle (for your part).

give it up, your interpretation of events are obviously coloured by your negative interaction with police and therefore the right actions taken by police are a horrible human rights violation in your eyes. It is unfortunate that you went off the deep end on this...
.....little scary actually, it's people in the same mindset as you who sue the police for acceptable actions like this....

it has been said to you time and time again, cuff for safety and to scare the crap out of the kid, the parents were in the wrong, the police had no idea what they were RUNNING into, yes all they had to go on was the neighbours interpretation of events, unfortunately the police RUNNING into a house don't have the luxury of the Monday morning quarterback, what they got was
- kids, beer, cleaver, and lots of yelling and screaming..

..now put yourself in their shoes....you gunna politely knock and ask the kid to please put the cleaver and the beer down and please be more respectful of your neighbours? you must remember Derby...a youth is fully capable the most horrendous acts imaginable, rape, murder, revenge killing, abduction/forcible confinement, heck was it last year, or the year before that one kid set up an AMBUSH to kill his family, and what did his brother get, something like 20 STAB WOUNDS!!

no wate I have an even more diabolical exapmle...that kid who made a phoney 911 call to an abandoned parking lot ONLY TO SLIT THE THROAT OF THE ATTENDING OFFICER....

k buddy, you put on that uniform and play nice, just don't be surprised when the youth you are being buddy-buddy with pulls out a glock and ends your misserable existance.

Says you buddy.

Once again, if I was such a cop hating bastard then why did I side with the cops on other threads when even the cop lovers here did not?

There is no proof there was a cleaver and given the info coming out it is apparent the kid did not have one. The parents and kid make no mention of it and the police certainly didn't say they reacted like they did because he was holding one.

As for your stories about kids who have done gruesome things so what?

So have cops. Cops have gone bad before also. I like how you can use past incidents of bad kids to convict this one without bothering to realize that cops have raped, murdered, abused children, and just about every vile thing you can mention also.

Proves nothing because we are dealing with a specific incident.

OH, BTW, when you go up to hospital wards to take blood from children who have been abused then you can come back and talk to me.

Until then on yer bike.

[DerbyX]

lily lily:

If she couldn't hear the noise, then she wasn't close enough that it was a reasonably safe distance.

BS. She wouldn't be able to hear them if they were off in a far away park playing would she?

[Heavy_Metal]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Heavy_Metal Heavy_Metal:

Derby, you have fought a uselesly long and completely pointless battle (for your part).

give it up, your interpretation of events are obviously coloured by your negative interaction with police and therefore the right actions taken by police are a horrible human rights violation in your eyes. It is unfortunate that you went off the deep end on this...
.....little scary actually, it's people in the same mindset as you who sue the police for acceptable actions like this....

it has been said to you time and time again, cuff for safety and to scare the crap out of the kid, the parents were in the wrong, the police had no idea what they were RUNNING into, yes all they had to go on was the neighbours interpretation of events, unfortunately the police RUNNING into a house don't have the luxury of the Monday morning quarterback, what they got was
- kids, beer, cleaver, and lots of yelling and screaming..

..now put yourself in their shoes....you gunna politely knock and ask the kid to please put the cleaver and the beer down and please be more respectful of your neighbours? you must remember Derby...a youth is fully capable the most horrendous acts imaginable, rape, murder, revenge killing, abduction/forcible confinement, heck was it last year, or the year before that one kid set up an AMBUSH to kill his family, and what did his brother get, something like 20 STAB WOUNDS!!

no wate I have an even more diabolical exapmle...that kid who made a phoney 911 call to an abandoned parking lot ONLY TO SLIT THE THROAT OF THE ATTENDING OFFICER....

k buddy, you put on that uniform and play nice, just don't be surprised when the youth you are being buddy-buddy with pulls out a glock and ends your misserable existance.

Says you buddy.

Once again, if I was such a cop hating bastard then why did I side with the cops on other threads when even the cop lovers here did not?

There is no proof there was a cleaver and given the info coming out it is apparent the kid did not have one. The parents and kid make no mention of it and the police certainly didn't say they reacted like they did because he was holding one.

As for your stories about kids who have done gruesome things so what?

So have cops. Cops have gone bad before also. I like how you can use past incidents of bad kids to convict this one without bothering to realize that cops have raped, murdered, abused children, and just about every vile thing you can mention also.

Proves nothing because we are dealing with a specific incident.

OH, BTW, when you go up to hospital wards to take blood from children who have been abused then you can come back and talk to me.

Until then on yer bike.

$1:

There is no proof there was a cleaver

there was a report of a cleaver by the neighbour, as far as the police are concerned there IS a cleaver involved, until proven otherwise.

$1:

As for your stories about kids who have done gruesome things so what?

you took the position of innocent little kids playing around, I am illustrating that kids have the same if not more capacity to inflict 'adult' horrors.

$1:

Cops have gone bad before also

very true, and I'm sure they have been dealt with in one form or another (criminal code, police services act, private litigation), just like this kid has been dealt with.

man, what does taking blood from beaten kids have ANY relevance to the story, argument or situation?
...just another useless comment in a pathetically numb argument....

[DerbyX]

lily lily:

$1:

OH, BTW, when you go up to hospital wards to take blood from children who have been abused then you can come back and talk to me.

And your point would be.....?

The same point that somebody makes when they say "put on the uniform then talk".

I don't need to be a cop to know when a child is being abused by authority any more then you need to be a cop to think they were in the right.

[DerbyX]

$1:

there was a report of a cleaver by the neighbour, as far as the police are concerned there IS a cleaver involved, until proven otherwise.

No, you said this and that implies the cops saw the cleaver and beer actually on the kid. That did not happen. All the cleaver story does is possibly justify the intial door kick and guns drawn not the real complaint and thats the subsequent treatment.

$1:

now put yourself in their shoes....you gunna politely knock and ask the kid to please put the cleaver and the beer down and please be more respectful of your neighbours?

It seems to me that the complete lack of either the police or the kid and his parent mentioning the cleaver suggests it was the neighbours error.

$1:

you took the position of innocent little kids playing around, I am illustrating that kids have the same if not more capacity to inflict 'adult' horrors.

Based on a very likely scenario and the odds.

By the very same logic and proof I showed cops can act just as badly and are quite capable of exceeding their authority and abusing people.

Do you recall the recent video of the wheelchair person tossed on the ground by cops? How about the video that "shut off" just before a women "fell" and hurt herself when she reported she was punched?

In either case it doesn't prove anything.

$1:

very true, and I'm sure they have been dealt with in one form or another (criminal code, police services act, private litigation), just like this kid has been dealt with.

Just as the police will answer for their conduct.

$1:

man, what does taking blood from beaten kids have ANY relevance to the story, argument or situation?
...just another useless comment in a pathetically numb argument....

It has as much relevance as you assertion that only a cop is fit to judge this case and your pathetic argument that only people supporting the cops 100% are right in any way shape or form and everybody who doesn't think that is just some cop hating bastard.

[dino_bobba_renno]

lily lily:

$1:

SOmany people are ready to have the parent drawn and quartered for "neglect" but now it seems that the mother left her son and his friends safe in her house and stepped next door to no doubt escape the shennanigans that every parent can understand.

So now she was next door, eh? I wonder how she missed all the noise... not only of the kids, but the cops kicking the door in, etc.

Also - how come someone else had to call her to tell her her son had been arrested... if she was next door and all, wouldn't she have known something was going on?

That’s funny because on the TV interview they did the mother made it sound like she was down the street at her mothers place. Why did it take the Mom 20 minutes to respond if she was next door? There was no mention of the police threatening to use a taser or a straight jacket. The kid did recall how the neighbor broke their window by throwing an empty beer can at it.

This kid and his parents are so full of sh.... they can't even get their story straight. The best part of the whole interview was when the kid was asked if an apology would make things better, he replied that a written one and then they would have to see what their laywer has to say. (Can anyone say "money!!!"). Great thing these people are teaching this kid!

[mikewood86]

$1:

Based on a very likely scenario and the odds.

By the very same logic and proof I showed cops can act just as badly and are quite capable of exceeding their authority and abusing people.

Do you recall the recent video of the wheelchair person tossed on the ground by cops? How about the video that "shut off" just before a women "fell" and hurt herself when she reported she was punched?

I also recall videos of police officers running into buildings that just had planes crashed into them, and then in one shot, most of the dieing in the line of duty. Police have done far more greater things for the world than bad, and for that, I would expect police officers to be trusted, however, not blindly. There are bad apples everywhere, wether its police, 10 year olds, or parents.

In either case it doesn't prove anything.

$1:

very true, and I'm sure they have been dealt with in one form or another (criminal code, police services act, private litigation), just like this kid has been dealt with.

Just as the police will answer for their conduct.

Hopefully they get a medal of some sort

$1:

man, what does taking blood from beaten kids have ANY relevance to the story, argument or situation?
...just another useless comment in a pathetically numb argument....

It has as much relevance as you assertion that only a cop is fit to judge this case and your pathetic argument that only people supporting the cops 100% are right in any way shape or form and everybody who doesn't think that is just some cop hating bastard.

Derby, the fact you are throwing 100% support behind the child/parents without hearing the entire story (from the police side as well) suggests to me your lack of trust in the police. I don't care what you have said in the past about supporting them or whatever.

This is now, and this is a fact:
You would believe a 10 year olds' story outright before hearing the police officers story.

Read it again.

You believe a 10 year old before hearing the police report.

Are you mad? Put down the cleaver.

[RUEZ]

mikewood86 mikewood86:

$1:

Based on a very likely scenario and the odds.

By the very same logic and proof I showed cops can act just as badly and are quite capable of exceeding their authority and abusing people.

Do you recall the recent video of the wheelchair person tossed on the ground by cops? How about the video that "shut off" just before a women "fell" and hurt herself when she reported she was punched?

I also recall videos of police officers running into buildings that just had planes crashed into them, and then in one shot, most of the dieing in the line of duty. Police have done far more greater things for the world than bad, and for that, I would expect police officers to be trusted, however, not blindly. There are bad apples everywhere, wether its police, 10 year olds, or parents.

In either case it doesn't prove anything.

$1:

very true, and I'm sure they have been dealt with in one form or another (criminal code, police services act, private litigation), just like this kid has been dealt with.

Just as the police will answer for their conduct.

Hopefully they get a medal of some sort

$1:

man, what does taking blood from beaten kids have ANY relevance to the story, argument or situation?
...just another useless comment in a pathetically numb argument....

It has as much relevance as you assertion that only a cop is fit to judge this case and your pathetic argument that only people supporting the cops 100% are right in any way shape or form and everybody who doesn't think that is just some cop hating bastard.

Derby, the fact you are throwing 100% support behind the child/parents without hearing the entire story (from the police side as well) suggests to me your lack of trust in the police. I don't care what you have said in the past about supporting them or whatever.

This is now, and this is a fact:
You would believe a 10 year olds' story outright before hearing the police officers story.

Read it again.

You believe a 10 year old before hearing the police report.

Are you mad? Put down the cleaver.

I feel the same as Derby, and I have no grudge or past trouble with the po-lice that would cause me to be swayed.

[DerbyX]

mikewood86 mikewood86:

$1:

Based on a very likely scenario and the odds.

By the very same logic and proof I showed cops can act just as badly and are quite capable of exceeding their authority and abusing people.

Do you recall the recent video of the wheelchair person tossed on the ground by cops? How about the video that "shut off" just before a women "fell" and hurt herself when she reported she was punched?

I also recall videos of police officers running into buildings that just had planes crashed into them, and then in one shot, most of the dieing in the line of duty. Police have done far more greater things for the world than bad, and for that, I would expect police officers to be trusted, however, not blindly. There are bad apples everywhere, wether its police, 10 year olds, or parents.

In either case it doesn't prove anything.

$1:

very true, and I'm sure they have been dealt with in one form or another (criminal code, police services act, private litigation), just like this kid has been dealt with.

Just as the police will answer for their conduct.

Hopefully they get a medal of some sort

$1:

man, what does taking blood from beaten kids have ANY relevance to the story, argument or situation?
...just another useless comment in a pathetically numb argument....

It has as much relevance as you assertion that only a cop is fit to judge this case and your pathetic argument that only people supporting the cops 100% are right in any way shape or form and everybody who doesn't think that is just some cop hating bastard.

Derby, the fact you are throwing 100% support behind the child/parents without hearing the entire story (from the police side as well) suggests to me your lack of trust in the police. I don't care what you have said in the past about supporting them or whatever.

This is now, and this is a fact:
You would believe a 10 year olds' story outright before hearing the police officers story.

Read it again.

You believe a 10 year old before hearing the police report.

Are you mad? Put down the cleaver.

Without hearing the entire story?

What could it be? The police had things well in hand long before cuffing and they weren't dealing with a full grown adult who could turn on them in an instance.

They were dealing with a 10 year old child for petes sake and one that was so terrified after being cuffed he was crying and shaking.

I love how you guys say I have no respect, trust, or like of any police officer based entirely on my belief that these specific officers fucked up

It shows just how flawed your logic is and thus your argument.

If I hate all cops because I find these officers were in the wrong then by extension you guys must hate all kids and parents because you find they were wrong.

Black letter logic.

I'm a Liberal too so that must mean all Liberals hate cops.

BTW, I've known kids to be farmore truthful then some adults and anybody disputing that simply isn't connected to reality.

What matters here is, is this child being truthful? I think he is and his story makes sense and rings true.

The police have yet to confirm or deny anything including the meat cleaver which to me suggest that enough mistakes were made that they want to get their stories straight before speaking.

They can easily release the 911 tapes and should do so, so that we can know what rthey were responding to.

[Heavy_Metal]

dude you're done, just stop

all of your points have been shot down and you're just kicking a dead horse now, know when you are defeated and just freggen stop..

[DerbyX]

Heavy_Metal Heavy_Metal:

dude you're done, just stop

all of your points have been shot down and you're just kicking a dead horse now, know when you are defeated and just freggen stop..

Thats funny.

I have successfully defeated ever point you or anyone else has made.

1) The cops acted heavy-handedly.

--- They handcuffed a 10 year old child. Thats a win for me.

2) The cleaver.

--- Not one single person can prove a cleaver existed and all they can say is the neighbour told CTV news that. They have used the cleaver to justify everything including the cuffing yet no proof exists. The child and his parents don't mention it and they damn well would if it had happened lest their entire case be called into question. The police have said absolutely nothing at all about a cleaver. Not one word. Looks like I won that point as well.

3) The parents "abandoned the child".

--- I disproved that nonesense by pointing out that kids that age go off without any supervision to parks or whatever and for long periods of time. If the law and societ can accept that then they can certainly accept them being unsupervised in the safety of their own home.

4) Who lied, cops VS kids.

--- I showed that both are equally capable odf this.

5) Cops don't do this.

--- Defeated that point as well.

6) My "hatred" of cops has clouded my judgement.

--- a weak argument based on an appeal to motive fallacy. I defeated hat by past evidence and my point that obviously anybody who doesn't agree with the kid must therefore hate kids and therefore their judgement is clouded.

I defeated every point and every argument.

[Heavy_Metal]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Heavy_Metal Heavy_Metal:

dude you're done, just stop

all of your points have been shot down and you're just kicking a dead horse now, know when you are defeated and just freggen stop..

Thats funny.

I have successfully defeated ever point you or anyone else has made.

1) The cops acted heavy-handedly.

--- They handcuffed a 10 year old child. Thats a win for me.

2) The cleaver.

--- Not one single person can prove a cleaver existed and all they can say is the neighbour told CTV news that. They have used the cleaver to justify everything including the cuffing yet no proof exists. The child and his parents don't mention it and they damn well would if it had happened lest their entire case be called into question. The police have said absolutely nothing at all about a cleaver. Not one word. Looks like I won that point as well.

3) The parents "abandoned the child".

--- I disproved that nonesense by pointing out that kids that age go off without any supervision to parks or whatever and for long periods of time. If the law and societ can accept that then they can certainly accept them being unsupervised in the safety of their own home.

4) Who lied, cops VS kids.

--- I showed that both are equally capable odf this.

5) Cops don't do this.

--- Defeated that point as well.

6) My "hatred" of cops has clouded my judgement.

--- a weak argument based on an appeal to motive fallacy. I defeated hat by past evidence and my point that obviously anybody who doesn't agree with the kid must therefore hate kids and therefore their judgement is clouded.

I defeated every point and every argument.

bbbwwwaaahahaha you're as blind as i was when i tried to take down firefighters a peg or two....

ok, i'll spell it out for you then i'm f*cking done.

1. heavy handed - come on....really...cuffing a kid to scare the shit out of him is called proactive policing and operant conditioning - stimulis of acting out at home = response of getting in trouble with the police - that kid will never forget how scared he was sitting in the back of the cruser therefore he will not engage in actions that will put him in that situation again.

2. the cleaver - man you haven't done anything to pick apart my argument that when the neighbour said 'they have a clever' THE POLICE HAVE TO ACT AS IF THAT IS A TRUE OBSERVATION the consequences of taking something like that as frivilous is the very likely possibility of death or maiming of a police officer.....

it is the exact same when police draw their weapons on someone with a paintball gun....YOU NEVER KNOW!

3. i agree that the parents didn't abandon their children and you'll get no argument to that fact.

4. whether they are capable of lying or not is moot, it is whether they DID lie is what is at issue, that point neither you or I could argue as all we have is speculation.

5. cops don't do this.....don't do what....you've spat so much bullshit onto this post i'm not sure of the point you're trying to 'defeat'

6. you don't have to HATE cops for your judgement to be couded....get a speeding ticket recently? parking ticked? have a friend in that situation? you been yelled at by the cops for doing something stupid? 'course you're going to deny all of it, but there is something there that has put a bug up your ass that's got you all pissy toward the police....want proof? the 11 paiges of your dancing around the issues and narrowing your arguments to subjects that have already been explained to you....more than once....like the cleaver....

so like i said, you're just blinded by your need to make a point...of some sort....i know...i did the same with my firefighter thread....in that thread i was wrong, i know that and am man enough to admit that....sounds like you need to wait for your nuts to drop before you come to the 'oh shit, i'm wrong' revelation.

keep jumping up and down....hopefully they'll fall as fast as your argument has

[Brenda]

$1:

that kid will never forget how scared he was sitting in the back of the cruser therefore he will not engage in actions that will put him in that situation again.

Bullshit. Ever had a hangover? I bet you got drunk again If people were not to do the things that frightened them once, the world would be a better place then it is now

I don't think Derb is wrong.

[DerbyX]

$1:

ok, i'll spell it out for you then i'm f*cking done.

Thats right. You are done. We agree at last.

$1:

1. heavy handed - come on....really...cuffing a kid to scare the shit out of him is called proactive policing and operant conditioning - stimulis of acting out at home = response of getting in trouble with the police - that kid will never forget how scared he was sitting in the back of the cruser therefore he will not engage in actions that will put him in that situation again.

Yes it was heavy handed. No 10 year old deserves that and I doubt it happened to you despite the almost certainty you did exactly what this kid did.

Why not have the cops pistol whip him then? Really drive the point home.

BTW, if your theory had any validity then there would be no such thing as recidivism.

Point defeated.

$1:

2. the cleaver - man you haven't done anything to pick apart my argument that when the neighbour said 'they have a clever' THE POLICE HAVE TO ACT AS IF THAT IS A TRUE OBSERVATION the consequences of taking something like that as frivilous is the very likely possibility of death or maiming of a police officer.....

If you bothered to read at all then you should realize that all the cleaver report does is explain the initial door kicking and guns drawn and not one bit of their behaviour after the fact.

Point defeated and quite easily.