[Zipperfish]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

The principle of collective guilt follows right behind the socialist principle of collective rights.

If groups can be entitled to things then groups can also be convicted of things.

And this is why the whole notion of group rights is fundamentally at odds with individual rights and liberties.

It's not collective guilt. Sheesh, do you guys even listen? I said "You are not responsible. Canada is." Canada exists as a legal entity. When you go to court up here with the crown it says right on the front cover "Canada vs. So-and-so." Canada is a legal entity an dis bound by law and can be held to account when it contravenes its stated laws and policies.

[Zipperfish]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Canada is a legal entity and it is bound by law.

I guess that's about the level of rejoinder I've come to expect around here unfortunately.

[BartSimpson]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Canada is a legal entity and it is bound by law.

I guess that's about the level of rejoinder I've come to expect around here unfortunately.

I'm sorry, but neither of our governments is bound by any law. Yours probably more so than mine but that's like saying an embezzler is more law abiding than an armed robber.

[Coach85]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

They do not currently get royalties from businesses operating on their land. North Vancouver, where I live, is on the traditional territories of the Tsleil Waututh people. They don't get any taxes or royalties from the people and businesses that live and operate here.

Sure they do. It's just not called taxes or royalties. Aboriginal Affairs and other agencies support our FN communities to the tune of billions annually on top of not paying a variety of taxes.

Is it all about money? Money isn't the cure. Neither is another apology.

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Sure, and why don't you thank the First Nations for their grace in sharing the land and trying to reach for reconciliation peacefully, despite between dispossessed of their lands?

We do. Quite often actually. In our schools, we thank various groups for the use of their traditional land during all gatherings of students.

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

You're not fooling anyone. I've got natives in my family, and they have done very well and I have nothing but respect for them because they had to make it while all the time dealing with people who just thought they were no-good lazy drunks. People like you.

I'm not trying to fool you. I'm repeating facts. Maybe the stats are false? Maybe alcoholism isn't a massive issue? Maybe there aren't so many people on social assistance?

My neighbour is a Native woman. Husband, two kids and has worked her entire life off the reserve. She won't go back 'home'.

They're not all lazy drunks just like not all blacks are criminals. However, if you don't own up to problems in the community, like you are doing, it does nothing to improve the lives of the people you're trying to help.

[BartSimpson]

Coach85 Coach85:

Is it all about money? Money isn't the cure. Neither is another apology.

The end game here is to ethnically cleanse the whites and Asians from Canada so the FN can take back control of Canada and make of it a Utopian paradise that will be the absolute envy of North Korea, Zimbabwe, South Sudan, and etc.

[Zipperfish]

Coach85 Coach85:

Sure they do. It's just not called taxes or royalties. Aboriginal Affairs and other agencies support our FN communities to the tune of billions annually on top of not paying a variety of taxes.

Is it all about money? Money isn't the cure. Neither is another apology.

No it isn't the cure. Self-determination is, so that the income comes from their ability to manage the land and resources instead of being portioned out by the federal government.

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Sure, and why don't you thank the First Nations for their grace in sharing the land and trying to reach for reconciliation peacefully, despite between dispossessed of their lands?

We do. Quite often actually. In our schools, we thank various groups for the use of their traditional land during all gatherings of students.

[/quote]
I'm not trying to fool you. I'm repeating facts. Maybe the stats are false? Maybe alcoholism isn't a massive issue? Maybe there aren't so many people on social assistance?

My neighbour is a Native woman. Husband, two kids and has worked her entire life off the reserve. She won't go back 'home'.

They're not all lazy drunks just like not all blacks are criminals. However, if you don't own up to problems in the community, like you are doing, it does nothing to improve the lives of the people you're trying to help.[/quote]

Well I think the bands I know are owning up to it big time. I think the key is reconciliation and self-determination.

I think taking down a statue of Sir John A is stupid. But it does make me sad to see the widespread absolultely casual racism against natives. in this country.

[Thanos]

This type of SJW-ing just makes things worse though, Zippy. It's just extremism on the one side fueling reactionary extremism on the other.

[bootlegga]

raydan raydan:

If you look at what we've built, we haven't made this world a better place. If anything, we've screwed it up pretty bad.

I don't know if I'd go that far - on the whole, humanity is much better off than it ever has been.

Steven Pinker has some points that might surprise you:

[Thanos]

Pinker's correct, as usual, and he's normally pretty awesome. The thing with him is that I don't think he really properly assesses the intensity and vitriol of those extremist camps on both the left and right that are trying to drag us all down. Or takes into proper account the foreign enemies, like Putin, and what kind of lethal damage they can do.

Progress is continual and is the natural flow of humanity. That being said it's also very fragile and can be stopped dead in it's tracks for entire generations by a determined enough social enemy with an agenda. Removing the statue of John A. harms real progress and only serves to fuel those on the other side with an agenda of their own.

[BartSimpson]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Steven Pinker has some points that might surprise you:

Like the admission that 'free trade' has been great news for poor countries and not-so-great news for the countries that exported their jobs to those poor countries.

[bootlegga]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

bootlegga bootlegga:

Steven Pinker has some points that might surprise you:

Like the admission that 'free trade' has been great news for poor countries and not-so-great news for the countries that exported their jobs to those poor countries.

He didn't say that - he said free trade has been good for humanity as a whole.

Besides, most jobs weren't replaced by people in Indonesia or China so much as they were by automation, which is the way it's been for a long time.

$1:

The US did indeed lose about 5.6m manufacturing jobs between 2000 and 2010. But according to a study by the Center for Business and Economic Research at Ball State University, 85 per cent of these jobs losses are actually attributable to technological change — largely automation — rather than international trade.

https://www.ft.com/content/dec677c0-b7e ... d1533d9a62

[Coach85]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

I think taking down a statue of Sir John A is stupid. But it does make me sad to see the widespread absolultely casual racism against natives. in this country.

It also bothers me the racism coming from within the FN communities towards white/black/brown people.

If we denounce racism, it needs to cover everyone and all abide by the same rules. Nobody gets a pass because of their past.

[Coach85]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

I think the key is reconciliation and self-determination.

I'm sorry Zip, but this doesn't make any sense.

You need to drill down on why you think this is key.

The TRC is complete. We've started down the road with respect to the missing and murdered aboriginal women. Others recommendations have been acted upon. Some not started.

What's changed?

Even if all of the recommendations are met, how will this change anything? How will this pull our Native communities out of a cycle of drugs and alcohol? How will this make communities take more responsibility for their homes and their health?

While all this stuff is 'warm and fuzzy' and long overdue, I just don't see how any of this will help change the current conditions.

[Thanos]

I'm all for money and management if they make the reserves profitable and turns them into much better places to live, although by Shep's horror stories there's always gonna be a cluster of fetal-alcohol syndrome assholes and born-criminal pricks who try to wreck the place for the others who are trying hard. My main concern is this "reconciliation" buzzword. Like when is reconciliation complete, when are the alleged debts finally paid off, when does the endless apology train get to it's final stop? Or is it going to be something that's there as long as Canada exists, where no generation of non-Natives is free of the collective guilt that's apparently laid on them even before they're born?

To me this is an intolerable situation. And I'm not talking about treaty rights either. If those are perpetual then so be it. I'm way more concerned about the corrosion on national morale that has already occurred, and apparently always will, by making the future permanently responsible to pay for the mistakes and (alleged) crimes of the past.

[Vbeacher]

herbie herbie:

Well sorry to spoil the show but this "erasing history" is entire bullshit made up by people who simply don't want to include anyone else in their reality. If that kind of thinking isn't racism, God knows what is.

Thanks for so clearly illustrating that you have no idea what racism actually IS.