[Thanos]

andyt andyt:

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

You wouldn't need to draft anyone if you just nuke Raqqah.

I'm sure that will calm things down.

Well, we can proceed with the liberal plan you approve of and keep trying to sort the less - bad ones from the really - bad. At the same time we can also search for that needle in the haystack and can also plan our transportation needs around the eventual successful development of a fuel efficient flying pig.

[N_Fiddledog]

andyt andyt:

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

You wouldn't need to draft anyone if you just nuke Raqqah.

I'm sure that will calm things down.

Being reasonable I think when somebody says something like "nuke Raqqah" they aren't necessarily demanding the dropping of a nuke.

They're saying take Raqqa out. There's all kinds of ordinance to do a better job of that. But yes that would be a start. That would put them on the run. Then you block communications and supply lines and wipe out the whole horde of scurrying rodents as they swarm around looking for sanctuary. And you'll find no shortage of volunteers to do the job.

[bootlegga]

andyt andyt:

bootlegga bootlegga:

xerxes xerxes:

Still, if it was ISIS behind this, I'd say it's finally time to make Raqqah look like Passchendale after the war.

Yep, it looks like it's time for the gloves to come off.

So, are we going to institute the draft? What was the cost to the US for the failed Iraq II mess in lives and treasure? How much more will it cost this time, fighting an enemy that comes and disappears? How long do you think it will take to occupy the region with very strict controls until groups like ISIS disappear? What about all the other jihadi groups in the world that are not in Syria or Iraq? What will they do while all our effort is expended in those two countries? What will Turkey do as we hand over large portions of Iraq and Syria to the Kurds? How much help will southern Iraq/Iran be, how much hindrance. What will Russia do? Are we going to let them keep Assad in power, maybe give them Ukraine to keep them onside? And so on...

But number one, are we really ready to stay on a war footing for likely decades, keep sending our people over there to die, way ramp up our military budget?

ISIS isn't a country, it's an ideology that has spread it's cancer around the world. I doubt it can be defeated by conventional military means. If we had some solid allies in the region to help them gain power and keep the region friendly toward us, that would be one thing, but we don't. Even the Kurds are producing ISIS fighters. There seem to be few good options, or we would have done them by now. Sometimes an elephant can stomp around all it wants, but can't stop the vermin biting at it's feet.

We need a better strategy in the West in dealing with Muslims living among us. Canada is actually an example here because we've had very little of the shit they have in Europe, and I think most Muslims living here would support Canada rather than the jihadists if we get the same shit here. I guess we do have to have a clear approach towards the Muslims living here. If you are with us, great, welcome, show it by helping us root out the jihadists. We need to press them much harder on the issue, and if they're not with us, well buh bye. France otoh, has far more work to do. They've allowed ghettos of Muslims to fester, they did not open their doors for Muslims to integrate the way we did. It might be too late for France to change it now, but they have to try. Same with all the other European countries - time to give your Muslims a choice between the carrot and the stick.

Why do you need the draft?

One brigade of troops from any NATO country would annihilate the 20000 fighters ISIS has.

But it doesn't have to come to that.

Instead of a single CF-18 dropping a bomb or two on an artillery battery, we need to send a squadron of B-52s to flatten ISIS fighters any time they mass. By starting out with a huge coordinated strike, it would be easy to wipe out most of their combat power in one go.

After we really flattened them and their troops a couple times, they would likely disperse and then we'd have to send in special forces to deal with them in close. That would no doubt cause casualties, but I'll take JTF2 over punk ass jihadists any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Either way, they would learn not to fuck with the West or we'd kill them all eventually. It might take a couple years, but it would work.

There are other hard line ways too, like tit-for-tat atrocities by hitting them at home too or using nukes and so on. To me, those are methods of last resort.

Either way, the West needs to relearn its baser side (like we had during World War 2) and stop being so soft on our enemies.

As for the naive idea that ideas cannot be dealt with with military force, we did it with slavery and National Socialism, so there is no reason to believe we can't do the same with radical Islam.

It just takes time and a willingness to do so.

[andyt]

bootlegga bootlegga:

andyt andyt:

bootlegga bootlegga:

Yep, it looks like it's time for the gloves to come off.

So, are we going to institute the draft? What was the cost to the US for the failed Iraq II mess in lives and treasure? How much more will it cost this time, fighting an enemy that comes and disappears? How long do you think it will take to occupy the region with very strict controls until groups like ISIS disappear? What about all the other jihadi groups in the world that are not in Syria or Iraq? What will they do while all our effort is expended in those two countries? What will Turkey do as we hand over large portions of Iraq and Syria to the Kurds? How much help will southern Iraq/Iran be, how much hindrance. What will Russia do? Are we going to let them keep Assad in power, maybe give them Ukraine to keep them onside? And so on...

But number one, are we really ready to stay on a war footing for likely decades, keep sending our people over there to die, way ramp up our military budget?

ISIS isn't a country, it's an ideology that has spread it's cancer around the world. I doubt it can be defeated by conventional military means. If we had some solid allies in the region to help them gain power and keep the region friendly toward us, that would be one thing, but we don't. Even the Kurds are producing ISIS fighters. There seem to be few good options, or we would have done them by now. Sometimes an elephant can stomp around all it wants, but can't stop the vermin biting at it's feet.

We need a better strategy in the West in dealing with Muslims living among us. Canada is actually an example here because we've had very little of the shit they have in Europe, and I think most Muslims living here would support Canada rather than the jihadists if we get the same shit here. I guess we do have to have a clear approach towards the Muslims living here. If you are with us, great, welcome, show it by helping us root out the jihadists. We need to press them much harder on the issue, and if they're not with us, well buh bye. France otoh, has far more work to do. They've allowed ghettos of Muslims to fester, they did not open their doors for Muslims to integrate the way we did. It might be too late for France to change it now, but they have to try. Same with all the other European countries - time to give your Muslims a choice between the carrot and the stick.

Why do you need the draft?

One brigade of troops from any NATO country would annihilate the 20000 fighters ISIS has.

But it doesn't have to come to that.

Instead of a single CF-18 dropping a bomb or two on an artillery battery, we need to send a squadron of B-52s to flatten ISIS fighters any time they mass. By starting out with a huge coordinated strike, it would be easy to wipe out most of their combat power in one go.

After we really flattened them and their troops a couple times, they would likely disperse and then we'd have to send in special forces to deal with them in close. That would no doubt cause casualties, but I'll take JTF2 over punk ass jihadists any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Either way, they would learn not to fuck with the West or we'd kill them all eventually. It might take a couple years, but it would work.

There are other hard line ways too, like tit-for-tat atrocities by hitting them at home too or using nukes and so on. To me, those are methods of last resort.

Either way, the West needs to relearn its baser side (like we had during World War 2) and stop being so soft on our enemies.

As for the naive idea that ideas cannot be dealt with with military force, we did it with slavery and National Socialism, so there is no reason to believe we can't do the same with radical Islam.

It just takes time and a willingness to do so.

So what's keeping the West, ie the US from doing this, if it's such a good idea and easy solution? They actually kind of like ISIS and don't really want to hurt them too much?

[ShepherdsDog]

WTF? Someone hacked Boots account.

[2Cdo]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

WTF? Someone hacked Boots account.

My thoughts as well.

[BRAH]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

BRAH BRAH:

BREAKING: Paris terrorist was a Syrian refugee, says Greece government official

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/619447/Paris-terrorist-Syrian-refugee-Greece-government-official
______

Justin might want to rethink the Syrian refugee policy.

This might be a bit more believable if it came from a newspaper that didn't have a photo of the corpse of an Alien and another one showing a "Monster Mammal" walking on the surface of Mars on the front page. It might be true but .... y'know ...look at the source. The GOOD newspapers from the UK are cheesy tabloids. The BAD ones, ...

This!

[raydan]

You know a newspaper is really bad when they give you an André Rieu CD when you buy it.

[Thanos]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Either way, the West needs to relearn its baser side (like we had during World War 2) and stop being so soft on our enemies.

As for the naive idea that ideas cannot be dealt with with military force, we did it with slavery and National Socialism, so there is no reason to believe we can't do the same with radical Islam.

It just takes time and a willingness to do so.

I doubt anyone disputes that. The problem is that it will take the US to lead it and the US leadership comes out of their sewer of a political system. Set Obama and his (alleged) soft peddling aside for a moment. Do we really want to go through another round being led by the types of neo-cons again that did such wonders the last time they were in control. Because just like 9/11 was done by Sunni terrorists backed by Saudi Arabia was responded to by attacking Iraq that had nothing to do with it this thing with the Sunnis in ISIS that are backed by Saudi Arabia can just as quickly met with something as absurd as "you know what would be great? we should attack Iran". This is how dumb it can get because that's how dumb the Bush Admin was, and as bad as the Bushies were they'll all look like MENSA members in comparison to an admin led by these absolute fucking morons like Trump, Carson, Cruz, or any of those other degenerates that are currently riding around in the GOP clown car.

I believe the cause would be just and with appropriate leadership it should be pursued. The problem is that appropriate leadership will not come out of the United States anymore because the perversity of their political system has wrecked their capability to lead. I don't know what the answer is but the only thing that will happen will be Iraq Part Deux, or something even worse, with this kind of crisis in leadership. Give me a suggestion because I can't see any way around this problem anymore.

[BRAH]

$1:

<censored>
I am seeing a lot of talk about how it's time to "bomb the hell" out of ISIS. I understand the frustration and pain a lot of us are feeling.But before you resort to thinking bombs are the answer, please consider this;
ISIS isn't like Al Qaeda. They can't be taken out with military action. And that's the entire problem with the "just bomb the hell out of Syria" response. It's also why "training" isn't going to help.
ISIS is empowered and spreads via marginalized young men who have zero contact with ISIS leadership, but organize a cell and engage in acts of terror in the name of ISIS while acting on their own.
This is why the marginalization of Muslims here is exactly what ISIS wants. Because marginalized and disenfranchised young men looking for a place to belong and feel a purpose are the perfect ISIS recruits. And religion and race don't matter to ISIS. They rely on marginalized and discriminated against young men to carry their horror all over the world.
Thats why dropping bombs in Syria accomplishes nothing. That's why we MUST stand up to those who engage in racism and bigotry and ignorance against Muslims HERE.
That's how we keep ISIS from becoming more powerful.
It sounds very cliché, but the only effective response to ISIS is love for each other and a refusal to be pushed into hatred and bigotry. When you allow bigotry against Muslims to happen, you are allowing ISIS all the power they need.

<censored>
I'm watching people basically recruit for ISIS simply by being horrifically racist and bigoted. They just refuse to get how their own actions and words empower terrorism.
We saw this with the two Canadian "ISIS" terrorists. They had no contact whatsoever with any ISIS cell. They were marginalized and disenfranchised young men with personal problems and demons who turned to extremism as a means to feel more powerful and in control.


<censored>
BINGO and well said. Currently, 1 in 6 kids in Toronto live well below the poverty line. A big majority of those kids are Muslim. This will no doubt create "issues" in the near future, and this is why it's very important to (a) not drop bombs on Syria and (b) invest in marginalized populations inside Canada.

This is a conversation by one Leftist idiot with another, the names have been removed.

[xerxes]

He's not wrong.

[N_Fiddledog]

xerxes xerxes:

He's not wrong.

Sure he is. Which part is he right about? 'You can't win a war, so let's be Dhimmis?' Bullshit.

Or specifically, is it this one?

$1:

BINGO and well said. Currently, 1 in 6 kids in Toronto live well below the poverty line. A big majority of those kids are Muslim

So it's the disadvantaged who are corrupted, right?

Here's the biography of Jihadi John.

$1:

In 2006, he went to the University of Westminster, studying Information Systems with Business Management. He secured a lower second-class BSc (Hons) on graduation three years later.[11] At age 21, he worked as a salesman at an IT company in Kuwait and was considered by his boss as the best employee the company ever had.[14]

I can do that again and again if you like so that isn't what they're right about.

Is it this bit where Prog Regressive genius is displayed?

$1:

We saw this with the two Canadian "ISIS" terrorists. They had no contact whatsoever with any ISIS cell. They were marginalized and disenfranchised young men with personal problems and demons who turned to extremism as a means to feel more powerful and in control.

Both those two wannabe Jihadis wanted to go to Syria. You know what you do? Let them. But don't let them back when they see what we do to Raqqa. With any luck they're not around after that anyway.

What did I miss?

The big thing is though, we have to start naming the enemy here at home and dealing with it (it is an it and the'it is called Islam), and not enlarge the demographic or encourage the ideology. In fact discourage stuff like Wahhabism and Muslim Brotherhood 5th columnists with extreme prejudice.

Then yeah, "Destroy Raqqah". Capture Pu Pakr and Para-drop him into the centre of a Kurdish YPJ woman's miltia camp - hand-cuffed, with his shoe-laces tied. That's for starters.

Then let's see how badass their online BS-ers can make them sound. Oh, and let's deal with those guys and gals too.

[Jabberwalker]

martin14 martin14:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

This might be a bit more believable if it came from a newspaper ..look at the source. The GOOD newspapers from the UK are cheesy tabloids. The BAD ones, ...

Liberals use that a lot, to try and misdirect the conversation.

I already posted a BBC exerpt that showed the same.. is that better ?

Interesting that the local is from the same area as the CH jihadi who shot up
the kosher store.



129 dead

352 wounded

Unsound Unsound:

It's been said a few times over the years that at some point the europeans will remeber just how ruthless and vicious they can be. I wonder if this will be that final straw?

If Hollande was serious when he said that "Grance will be merciless in it's response", the jihadis are in for a very bad time.

This ?

No.
Not even close.

Maybe 40 people get arrested, 20 to trial, 5 jailed for helping, and then nothing.

It would need a low level nuke to get the Europussies off their asses.
And the police to stop protecting the government.

Don't insult Conservatives by saying that they read and believe newspapers with pictures of dead aliens at the head. They don't all like Rush Limbaugh, either. Only the fringe ....

[N_Fiddledog]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Don't insult Conservatives by saying that they read and believe newspapers with pictures of dead aliens at the head.

Wait a minute. You were serious about that? The only alien on the home page of the express was Doctor Who. You do know he's not real, right?

[xerxes]

$1:

Sure he is. Which part is he right about? 'You can't win a war, so let's be Dhimmis?' Bullshit.

I was thinking more this part:

$1:

This is why the marginalization of Muslims here is exactly what ISIS wants. Because marginalized and disenfranchised young men looking for a place to belong and feel a purpose are the perfect ISIS recruits. And religion and race don't matter to ISIS. They rely on marginalized and discriminated against young men to carry their horror all over the world.

My buddy and I were discussing this last night and he made a good point (at least I thought so):

Let's say we (the West) bomb the piss out of ISIS. What exactly will that accomplish? Sure, we'll kill a good number of them and their things. But does that really affect their menace? Would it stop young people from the West going over to Syria to fight for them? It doesn't help the people from whom ISIS is an actual threat. It's pure catharsis on our part.

Does it make us safer? It won't stop people from self-radicalising on the Internet.