[Regina]

Like a good story, a good immunization program has a beginning, a middle, and, ideally, an end. The following graphic describes the life-cycle of a typical immunization program. It illustrates, among other things, why a disease that has been nearly eliminated through vaccination might suddenly begin to reappear.
For example, it can help explain why there are outbreaks of diseases like measles and pertussis occurring in the United States today.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/life-cycle.htm

[DrCaleb]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

I don't view mandatory vaccination as a "colossal assault on freedom." These things should be decided on a balance of evidence. In the case of measles and flu, I don't see the risk justifying the action. It will be interesting to see if MMR vaccination rates increase given this recent outbreak. I suspect they will.

The evidence is pretty clear Zip! Measles and the Flu can lead to fatal outcomes. The flu also has a habit of mutating as it passes between people, people and animals and back to people, which is why we need a new vaccine every year. Remember the Swine flu outbreak a few years ago that was 70% fatal to those who got it? It was the first global Pandemic since 1918! We dodged a bullet, because when it mutated and became more virulent, it also became less severe. If it had remained 70% fatal, it would have became the next 1918 Spanish Flu and killed millions. The 1918 Flu killed more soldiers in WWI than combat did. Same with Dysentery, it killed more soldiers than combat did. It's what led Florence Nightingale to create the first study of water supplies, and her studies are still used in hospitals for secondary disease prevention.

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

I can see polio and smallpox. But chicken pox, measles, flu? I guess I always saw them as nuisances really. Different age I guess.

Chicken pox, mumps, diptheria, Pneumonia all have fatal side effects, and are highly contagious.



A lot of people don't see the need for vaccines anymore, because we don't see the millions who get sick yearly, or the hundreds of thousands who have long lasting consequences or the thousands who die.

So we think these diseases are gone. But they aren't, they are only kept in check by vaccines, and if we don't get 'herd immunity', up to 96% vaccination rates depending on the virulence of the disease, then the disease can run through the unvaccinated population and mutate!

[Regina]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

You can still get measles even with the vaccination....just as the 5th person here in Toronto has.

One dose of measles vaccine is about 93% effective at preventing measles if exposed to the virus and two doses is about 97% effective. Experts aren’t sure why; it could be that their immune systems didn’t respond as well as they should have to the vaccine. Fully vaccinated people who get measles are much more likely to have a milder illness, and they are also less likely to spread the disease to other people, including people who can’t get vaccinated because they are too young or have weakened immune systems.

[DrCaleb]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

The choice to vaccinate was easy for governments. It cost hundreds of millions of lives before we started to vaccinate and that wasn't a self-serving cause.

While governments often do things for their self-interest, vaccinations isn't one of them.

[Delwin]

This thread has got me thinking and I have come up with a brilliant idea. If we all wear 3' x 3' pieces of cardboard on our heads, our exposure to the sun will be drastically reduced, thereby preventing countless cases of skin cancer. Moreover, it will make the possibility of a seagull pooping in your eye and transmitting an infection infinitesimally small. Everyone is to begin doing this tomorrow, no exceptions. You can't argue with science.

[OnTheIce]

Delwin Delwin:

This thread has got me thinking and I have come up with a brilliant idea. If we all wear 3' x 3' pieces of cardboard on our heads, our exposure to the sun will be drastically reduced, thereby preventing countless cases of skin cancer. Moreover, it will make the possibility of a seagull pooping in your eye and transmitting an infection infinitesimally small. Everyone is to begin doing this tomorrow, no exceptions. You can't argue with science.

If someone in your family, someone you love, happens to contract any of these preventable diseases because someone opted not to get vaccinated, I expect you to return with the same humour you present today.

[Regina]

Delwin Delwin:

This thread has got me thinking and I have come up with a brilliant idea. If we all wear 3' x 3' pieces of cardboard on our heads, our exposure to the sun will be drastically reduced, thereby preventing countless cases of skin cancer. Moreover, it will make the possibility of a seagull pooping in your eye and transmitting an infection infinitesimally small. Everyone is to begin doing this tomorrow, no exceptions. You can't argue with science.

I guess if you don't have any sun screen and a hat for the poop. Won't do much for the reflective sun burn you get when out on the water or snow.............but I like the way you think kid!

[andyt]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

The flu also has a habit of mutating as it passes between people, people and animals and back to people, which is why we need a new vaccine every year.

This is one argument why vaccinating for the flu isn't the big deal that other diseases are. This year they guessed wrong as to the likely strains, and by some reports the vaccine is only 15 percent effective. Also, it's just been discovered that getting a flu shot one year reduces your immune response to a shot the next year. I kinda wished I hadn't gotten one this year so next year, if they had a very effective dose, I would have a better response.

Unlike Measles we can vaccinate for flu all we want, and it won't convey herd immunity and it won't reduce the reservoir of flu virus. Unless we start immunizing all pigs and chickens (only chickens, no other birds get it?). But diseases that don't show this mutation effect, definitely immunization should be mandatory or the kids kept out of school.

[DrCaleb]

andyt andyt:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

The flu also has a habit of mutating as it passes between people, people and animals and back to people, which is why we need a new vaccine every year.

This is one argument why vaccinating for the flu isn't the big deal that other diseases are. This year they guessed wrong as to the likely strains, and by some reports the vaccine is only 15 percent effective. Also, it's just been discovered that getting a flu shot one year reduces your immune response to a shot the next year. I kinda wished I hadn't gotten one this year so next year, if they had a very effective dose, I would have a better response.

Unlike Measles we can vaccinate for flu all we want, and it won't convey herd immunity and it won't reduce the reservoir of flu virus. Unless we start immunizing all pigs and chickens (only chickens, no other birds get it?). But diseases that don't show this mutation effect, definitely immunization should be mandatory or the kids kept out of school.

Which is why I included that first video. In it, a very smart Doctor discusses the way they are trying to tackle the mutation problem with the Flu by creating a generic vaccine that will immunize for all forms of the flu no matter how it mutates.

[andyt]

They've been at that for a while. Are they making progress, the way they apparently are with the rhinovirus?

[Zipperfish]

Khar Khar:

You say, contrasting the outbreak mentioned in my last post, rising levels of people buying into an anti-vaxxer view, and the risks that are resulting.

I've pretty much conceded my argument on most fronts, due to good arguments put forth by you, andy and peckerhead (sorry, peck, couldn't help myself). And, yes, OTI.

Mandatory vaccination--for probably 98% of the population, it won't be an issues as they are already vaccinated, or would get vaccinated if it were mandatory. So you are passing a law for that 2%. For this intractable bunch, you are going to have legally detain them, and their children. In some cases you may have to physically restrain them to give them the shot. Is that going to worth the cost and effort?

The "mandatory lite" proposed by Andy seems a better use of resources to me--that is education, and restricting access to unvaccinated kids at schools or unvaccinated employees from work, etc.

$1:

Here's the section of your post I responded to directly with mine:

"Unlike you, I believe in the freedom of the individual to make his or her own choices, good or bad. A Medical Health Officer can override your fundamental rights (such as freedom from arbitrary detainment) if the risk is sufficient.

Measles and the flu don't rate, in my opinion. Not every risk requires a massive state intervention."

Yes, well I was clearly wrong about that. Again, until this week, I considered measles a nuisance.

[DrCaleb]

andyt andyt:

They've been at that for a while. Are they making progress, the way they apparently are with the rhinovirus?

Yup. The Rhinovirii are also discussed.

[BartSimpson]

Public_Domain Public_Domain:

On NationStates I just got this issue for my nation. Decided to let people refuse vaccination, but their choice means they are barred from free healthcare.

NS sucks out loud. Go over to Cyber Nations (where CKA used to have an alliance) and start a country.

You can actually run a country on CN - run the economy, build things, choose a government, make war - or stay in peace mode.

It beats the hell out of just voting on stupid sh*t all the time.

[Regina]

Public_Domain Public_Domain:

On NationStates I just got this issue for my nation. Decided to let people refuse vaccination, but their choice means they are barred from free healthcare.

Our healthcare isn't free.

[OnTheIce]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

The "mandatory lite" proposed by Andy seems a better use of resources to me--that is education, and restricting access to unvaccinated kids at schools or unvaccinated employees from work, etc.

This is already the case here in Ontario. Kids have to be up to date on the vaccinations before they can attend school.

There are loopholes in that program that have to be closed.