[raydan]

desertdude desertdude:

This could very well be the best idea of this century

Sorry DD, I made that suggestion on page 34.

[desertdude]

You said state of Nevada, that would only work if you included some Indian reservations in it, so they have someone to bomb every three years or so, steal some land, lay siege to an area, you know so they can have a little touch of home in the land.

[andyt]

The Israelis are basically doing what we did to the Natives. The diff are the numbers of natives vs us, ie we don't have to worry about the natives becoming the majority, and that we now give the natives all the rights we have, plus extra. If Israel treated the Palestinians the way we do our natives, there would be no problem. No Israel either, of course.

[Goober911]

desertdude desertdude:

You said state of Nevada, that would only work if you included some Indian reservations in it, so they have someone to bomb every three years or so, steal some land, lay siege to an area, you know so they can have a little touch of home in the land.

DD
Asked a question. Is Israel entitled to a State? And I mean where they are.

[desertdude]

You made a statement, it wasn't a question, if you are asking me a question now, then technically no, just because they were treated horribly in Europe does not entitle them to any land in the middle east, if anything a strip of land should been taken from Germany and given to them, but they forced their way here, because some how the bible is supposed to be some kind of legal and valid land deed, Europe really didn't stop them from leaving either, the British tried to stop them for a while from entering.

Then they formed terrorists groups and fought the British and carried out acts f terror like the king David hotel bombing among many others, same people who would become leaders of Israel later on, then a land which these European immigrants had no right over were allocated a bigger chunk of land than the majority residents and all shit broke loose, so are they entitled to a state, no.

Practically speaking Israel is there, it exists and a reality and they already have a state and its not going away anytime soon.

[N_Fiddledog]

andyt andyt:

The Israelis are basically doing what we did to the Natives.

Wouldn't that be more accurate if the natives were the ones in charge now?

Was there a time when there were not Jews in Judea/Palestine/Israel/the Holy Land?

In any case this conflict is more ideological than racial. Remove the religious aspects and there is no problem.

The Muslims didn't arrive until the 7th century.

[N_Fiddledog]

[N_Fiddledog]

If we're doing history of bloodbaths to see who holds the high ground, I'm not sure there's a winner, but the Hebron massacre of Jews precedes the King David Hotel bombing by 17 years.

There has been a contiguous Jewish presence in the area for over 3000 years.

Refugees did not just come from Europe. Over 800,000 were pushed out of Arab countries. Almost 600,000 went to Israel between 1948 and 1972.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... ugees.html

$1:

260,000 Jews from Arab countries had immigrated to Israel between 1948 and 1951 and amounted for 56% of the total immigration to the newly founded State of Israel.[3] 600,000 Jews from Arab and Muslim countries had reached Israel by 1972.[4][5][6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exo ... _countries

[Zipperfish]

andyt andyt:

From what I see the invective here is almost all from the pro-Israel side. From claiming that the posters questioning Israel are pro-Hamas, to Martin's full on charge of anti-semitism (but not willing to back it up) what I see is hard right pro Israel vs people who are more balanced. Even all the claims from Brah how biased the MSM is against Israel, when all I read in the MSM are op eds saying Israel has the right to defend itself. It seems just reporting on Palestinians casualties is deemed biased against Israel. Then somebody like Bart will claim the casualties are inflicted by Hamas themselves. FD is all over this of course with his bullshit sources and claims.

I think this comes from knowing that Israel is also culpable here, that there's no excuse for the settlements, and the cognitive dissonance that comes from knowing that but wanting to see Israel as wearing the white hat. And of course the sympathy that comes from seeing Israel as surrounded by enemies that want its destruction. The latter is a valid point, but when you start holding Israel blameless no matter what they do, it no longer is.

The other unique thing about this conflict is the degree to which it is reported. Inevitably, as in any media glut, the media runs out of actual news so they start reporting on each other--that teh liberal media are biased this way, or the Jewish media is reporting this way, or that the corporate media is reporting this way. A big circlce jerk really. Lots of heat, no light. And an overwhelming notion that I am being manipulated rather than informed.

It is actually quite difficult to find authentic information on the history of Israel. The wiki sites were all locked down years ago, and are of very low quality due to incessant squabbling over the tiniest thing. I never studied the history of the area, the Palestine Mandate and all that. When I tried to educate myself on that, by asking, for example how Israel became a country I get complete opposite answers from people. Did the Jews drive the Arabs out? Try asking that one. I don't know the answer.

I have to disagree with you somewhat because I've seen a lot of fear and loathing from supporters of the Palestinians too. I think they attacked some pro-Israel demonstraters in Clagry.

[Delwin]

Start with Dalet plan. Work your way from there.

[andyt]

Look up Ben Gurion quotes on wiki - I posted some earlier in all this mess. He was well aware that the European Jews were driving the local Arab population off their land.

The thing is, it doesn't matter. We drove the Natives off their land too. We're not going to give all of Canada back to the Natives. (I hope) Israel is a fact and it's too late to change that - that is something the Arabs are going to have to accept. But, just as we now bend over backwards for the Natives, Israel can't keep taking more and more land, driving Palestinians onto smaller and smaller reservations. Israel has to be satisfied with the pre 67 borders, more or less, leave something for the Palestinians to build a viable country on. Because what's the alternative? Ethnically cleanse all the land west of the Jordan. Think that will bring peace, or put Israel in a good light? Take all the land but incorporate the Palestinians as full citizens? Good luck maintaining Israel as a Jewish state with that move.

[andyt]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

I have to disagree with you somewhat because I've seen a lot of fear and loathing from supporters of the Palestinians too. I think they attacked some pro-Israel demonstraters in Clagry.

I was speaking about CKA. Yes, in the wider world the Palestinians are more violent about this, while the Israelis have the more sophisticated public relations.

[Zipperfish]

andyt andyt:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

I have to disagree with you somewhat because I've seen a lot of fear and loathing from supporters of the Palestinians too. I think they attacked some pro-Israel demonstraters in Clagry.

I was speaking about CKA. Yes, in the wider world the Palestinians are more violent about this, while the Israelis have the more sophisticated public relations.

Yes with CKA I'd agree.

I wonder who the PR guy for ISIS is. "Hey guys, how about filming a massacre and putting on youtube as a recruitment tool!" Sorry, not funny. Sad really.

[desertdude]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

The other unique thing about this conflict is the degree to which it is reported. Inevitably, as in any media glut, the media runs out of actual news so they start reporting on each other--that teh liberal media are biased this way, or the Jewish media is reporting this way, or that the corporate media is reporting this way. A big circlce jerk really. Lots of heat, no light. And an overwhelming notion that I am being manipulated rather than informed.

It is actually quite difficult to find authentic information on the history of Israel. The wiki sites were all locked down years ago, and are of very low quality due to incessant squabbling over the tiniest thing. I never studied the history of the area, the Palestine Mandate and all that. When I tried to educate myself on that, by asking, for example how Israel became a country I get complete opposite answers from people. Did the Jews drive the Arabs out? Try asking that one. I don't know the answer.

I have to disagree with you somewhat because I've seen a lot of fear and loathing from supporters of the Palestinians too. I think they attacked some pro-Israel demonstraters in Clagry.

You might not get every detail but 2 plus 2 is enough to come to a result of 4

$1:

A British census of 1918 estimated 700,000 Arabs and 56,000 Jews.

Land ownership in 1945



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Partition_Plan

$1:

There are now in the whole of Palestine hardly 700,000 people, a population much less than that of the province of Gallilee alone in the time of Christ. Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or—a small number—are Protestants.

The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine. Most of them were animated by religious motives; they came to pray and to die in the Holy Land, and to be buried in its soil.
...
There are at the present time 64 of these settlements, large and small, with a population of some 15,000.

By 1948, the population had risen to 1,900,000, of whom 68% were Arabs, and 32% were Jews (UNSCOP report, including bedouin).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographi ... .80.931948

So you fill in the blanks. from being a handful of people at the beginning of the 20th century to at best being a minority in the mid 1940s with minority land ownership to what it is today.

To put in context lets say the few million recent immigrants to Canada, say they now want their own state now and want to carve up Canada. Would you agree to it ?

[martin14]

desertdude desertdude:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Partition_Plan

The Jews accepted the plan. The Arabs did not.

They decided it was better to go to war.



The Arabs went to war in 1948. They lost

The Arabs went to war in 1967. They lost.

The Arabs went to war in 1973. They lost.


And this is what happens when you lose so often. Time the Palis learned to deal with it.