[Winnipegger]

Vancouver 2011 riot.


London 2011. Not well organized, but police push back, establish control, they don't just stand there and take it.


In 1989, instructors for a medieval recreation society in Ontario, Canada, told me they were hired by local police to train riot control officers. The medieval recreation society used wooden swords and steel shields, playing at medieval war. But their annual "battles" resulted in formal study of medieval warfare. They trained members how to form an effective shield wall. For CKA members, it was the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA). Their big annual event was Pensic, with 1,000 to 1,200 fighters on each side fighting various battles over the weekend: field, woods, bridge, etc. One year, one tactic was to form a big "turtle"; all 1,000 fighters formed a mass in the field with fighters on the perimeter forming a wall of shields. It failed miserably. Their opponents surrounded them, and pushed in until they were defeated. One rule of warfare is not just now much brute force you have, but how that force is applied. With a circle, the outer ring has a greater area to apply force than the inside. Fighters on the inside, well behind the shield wall, could not swing their wooden swords. Don't get trapped, be mobile, be in control.

The police in Donets'k made the same mistake. They didn't surround the protestors and arrest them. They didn't push back to disperse the protestors. They stood in place and waited to be defeated.

[Winnipegger]

I grew up in the 1960s and 1970s. I watched the space race on TV, live as it happened. The last two missions of Mercury through Apollo 11, and everything after. Exciting! Science fiction become science fact. NASA promised the first human mission to Mars would depart Earth in 1981. We got a space shuttle instead; nice but doesn't hold a candle to Mars. I read a book in 1998 about how to send humans to Mars, written by an aerospace engineer. He described the big Russian rocket: Energia. At that time Boris Yeltsin was president of Russia. Energia was moth-balled but still available, and a hell of a lot cheaper than America building a new rocket. America could build a rocket as big as a Saturn V, built from Space Shuttle parts; billions of dollars. A Mars mission would require 2 of them. Energia was about 2/3 the size, so Mars would require 3. I did some further research, discovered NASA talked to the Russian company that makes Energia. In 1994 it would have cost between $60 million and $100 million US dollars to restore certain elements of infrastructure, plus $120 million per Energia launch, including its upper stage. That was 1994, it would cost more now, but we're still talking millions with an "M".

I have held the hope of an international mission to Mars. But Russia's action against Ukraine puts an end to that. Furthermore, strap-on boosters for Energia are first stage of Zenit. That's manufactured by Yuzhmash, in Dnipropetrovs'k, eastern Ukraine. The core module is manufactured in Russia, and launch site is Baikonur in Kazakhstan.

I had even come up with a plan for a Canadian led international mission, using Energia, and including the European Space Agency, Japan, Australia, and others might want to join in. But we wouldn't require NASA or the US at all. If the US wants to continue to overspend, run up their debt, risk another financial meltdown as bad as 2008, then the rest of the world could demonstrate that we can achieve great things without the US. Great wonderful example of international cooperation. I even worked out how Canada could pay for its contribution, enough to lead. However, Russia's invasion of Ukraine kills all of that. Damn!

[Gunnair]

andyt andyt:

Well, finally somebody that's not just jabbering on how doing nothing will outfox the Russians so they'll just give up and go home.

Doing nothing won't help. Ukraine needs to do something. Fight back or hand it over. Dithering makes everyone around them dither...except for Russia.

[PostFactum]

Man, don't compare Canadian riot and Ukrainian. It's like compare stick and cock.

[PostFactum]

Today, in the morning part of Slovjansk was taken by Ukrainian forces back.
One our helicopter is down.

$1:

Within Slavic 9 roadblocks terrorists brought under control , the terrorists opened fire against the Ukrainian side using heavy weapons , grenade launchers and MANPADS are dead and injured.
It was on his Facebook page said Interior Minister Arsen Avakov.
According to him, Slovyansk taken a tight ring.
Rail service in the area of ​​TUs will be closed for the next few hours , the traffic on the roads in the area of ​​Slavic limit to a minimum.
"There is a real battle with professional mercenaries. Terrorists do not stop firing , hiding behind civilians Slavic , residential apartment buildings ," - said Avakov.
He also asked residents of Slavic and Kramatorska not go out and be careful near windows.
"We , along with the Minister of Defense and Commander Natshvardiyi here," - he added.

[PostFactum]

$1:

During ATO terrorists shot down a Ukrainian helicopter pilot wounded and captured . According to others, two helicopters were shot down . Told the "People's Mayor " and " Leader self- Slavic " Vyacheslav Ponomarev , "Interfax - Ukraine ". However, he said, the pilot of one of two downed helicopters Ukrainian separatists now in their captivity . "We shot down two helicopters, one pilot in our captivity. Yet another while floundering in the estuary . One of the other pilots of the helicopter succeeded in text across the field . Yet another pilot was killed ," - said Ponomarev. See also: Ukraine 's Permanent Representative to the UN said the Abkhaz application scenario in the East to disrupt the elections Meanwhile journalist Alexander Kotz published photos and wounded the pilot reported that he allegedly took the "fast ." According to media reports , the pilot at the time in hospital . He had a gunshot wound and hip fracture. Meanwhile , according to the leader of the "information support " D. TIMCHUK was shot down only one helicopter , and Ukrainian military control almost all Slavic . According to the publication Slavgorod, as of 8.00 shooting subsided around town from time to time just to hear sporadic gunshots.
More can be found here : http://tsn.ua/politika/u-slov-yansku-te ... 47860.html

[PostFactum]

They are fighting, putting my tent to cupboard this time yet

[PostFactum]

Terrorists steal Shipping Slavic inhabitants to flee. On Slavic slavgorod.com.ua ATO began in Slavic , which began this morning ATO , the terrorists began to urgently take away cars from local residents. This was announced on his Facebook page rupy leader "Information resistance" D. TIMCHUK . "In Slavic regions , which remain under the control of terrorists, past conduct emergency " expropriation " of private transport residents. It is suspected that terrorists will try to break it with the blockaded city ," - said Timchuk . In addition, he said that among the separatists involved in terrorist activities petty criminals in Slavic observed panic . " Criminals, " working " for the money, do not agree to take risks and confront law enforcement officers for the" big ideas " Moscow" , - said Timchuk . Recall that this morning in Slavic began full-scale TUs. The city heard explosions and gunfire . Anti-terrorist operation started in about 4.30 of an alarm .
More can be found here : http://tsn.ua/politika/teroristi-namaga ... 47861.html

[andyt]

Well that was clever of them. Wait until the east is declared lost, then finally make a move. Very tricky. I bet Russia won't respond now, whereas if Ukraine had confronted the insurgents from the beginning, Russia would have invaded right away. Looks like finally somebody figured out that doing nothing wasn't such a good idea. Probably too little too late, let's hope they can at least save the West Ukraine.

Now of course all the people that called me a trolling chickenhawk will be cheering on this new found steel by the Ukrainians. I just didn't realize how brilliant the tactics of standing around helplessly for a while were. Probably catch the Russians napping and wind up taking territory from them.


@Post Factum. YOu had your cute little cartoon with me dressed in armor of ignorance and stupidity, yet here you are cheering on the very actions I was suggesting for Ukraine to take. Does this mean you've joined the ignorant and stupid, or that your armor is more of the Janus variety?

[PostFactum]

andyt andyt:

Does this mean you've joined the ignorant and stupid, or that your armor is more of the Janus variety?

No, it's only your club.

[PostFactum]

Second Ukrainian helicopter Mi-24 down.

[PostFactum]

Prosecuting department of Lugansk is Free

$1:

Militants after lengthy negotiations left the building Prosecution Lugansk region.
According to the press service of the Ministry vnutrshinih cases.
" The building was released last night after lengthy negotiations. Everything went quiet, calm , no one was hurt. Currently there is investigative team . Employees come to work in the afternoon ," - said a spokeswoman prosecutor Marina Bragin , - the Ukrinform .
Thus the question whether engaged the invaders destroy any criminal cases Bragin could not answer because she liberated in the building is not yet included.
According to her , full of information on the situation will be brought to the press later.
As you know , April 29, separatists seized the building of the Luhansk Oblast Prosecutor's Office.

[PostFactum]

andyt andyt:

Well that was clever of them. Wait until the east is declared lost, then finally make a move. Very tricky. I bet Russia won't respond now, whereas if Ukraine had confronted the insurgents from the beginning, Russia would have invaded right away. Looks like finally somebody figured out that doing nothing wasn't such a good idea. Probably too little too late, let's hope they can at least save the West Ukraine.

Now of course all the people that called me a trolling chickenhawk will be cheering on this new found steel by the Ukrainians. I just didn't realize how brilliant the tactics of standing around helplessly for a while were. Probably catch the Russians napping and wind up taking territory from them.


@Post Factum. YOu had your cute little cartoon with me dressed in armor of ignorance and stupidity, yet here you are cheering on the very actions I was suggesting for Ukraine to take. Does this mean you've joined the ignorant and stupid, or that your armor is more of the Janus variety?

You are definitely not right, but I have no desire to charge with you today. So keep hungry a little, I'll feed you later.

[Winnipegger]

MANPADS!?! That's a shoulder launch anti-aircraft missile! That's military hardware, and one costs as much as a large house. "Protestors" won't have that; this is Russian army weaponry. And grenade launchers? Send in the military.

But still, the CBC video tonight showed what they called protestors, I call insurgents, using rocks to overpower police. They took control of the prosecutor's office. Police there were in riot gear; they should have been able to handle that.

[PostFactum]

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

MANPADS!?! That's a shoulder launch anti-aircraft missile! That's military hardware, and one costs as much as a large house. "Protestors" won't have that; this is Russian army weaponry. And grenade launchers? Send in the military.

But still, the CBC video tonight showed what they called protestors, I call insurgents, using rocks to overpower police. They took control of the prosecutor's office. Police there were in riot gear; they should have been able to handle that.

And Russians say that is all "poor" Ukrainian East people who are against "West Nazies". They can be called best equipped rioters during all humanity history of riots.