[PostFactum]

andyt andyt:

You really insist on misreading the question, along with everybody else. It's not about going head to head with Russia, it's about dealing with a few hundred insurgents. The president of Ukraine expects this to happen, so i'm not alone in questioning wtf is going on here. Maybe there's just a lot more sympathy pro-Russia than we are led to believe.

"Sword" and "shield" in use.

[Winnipegger]

PostFactum, I'm very concerned. I understand the issues, but see another problem. You can't hold an election when the current government has lost control. The vote will be biased, and dramatically against the incumbent. The media reports that insurgents now control more government buildings in Eastern Ukraine than not. And a self-proclaimed administrator in Donetsk said he intends to hold a referendum to separate Donetsk from Ukraine on May 11. The Ukraine election is May 25, so if nothing is done then Donetsk will separate before the election. We saw with Crimea that the referendum was not fair: armed thugs with guns on the street, before and during the referendum. Russia military raided a Ukraine oil field outside Crimea and paratroop exercise on the Ukraine border, both the day before the referendum. Ballot boxes were transparent, so everyone could see how an individual voted, and therefore those same armed thugs were there to intimidate voters. And a giant "X" painted on houses of ethnic Tatars.

I was president of a community organization in 2001/2002. The coordinator refused to take direction, and stated her intent to take over the primary fund raising activity and exclude community members who founded the organization. Before I was elected, she had split the organization into three parts; and one program was run by a committee that she called a "board", so four. When she received an order she didn't like from a board of directors, she would claim one of the other boards had authority. So I proposed we merge the organizations, so there's only one board. I first asked community members if they want to do that, and did warn them that if we do this then they have to actually show up at the election. Organizing meetings went on for months. The members got tired, and disgusted. When the election was finally held, only three members showed up, but all of her friends. The entire community lost control of their own organization, the coordinator took control. She ran it as a dictator, ensuring her salary dramatically increased and only her friends were helped. The lesson is voters do not have patience to deal with a problem that lasts months. If the elected official fails to control employees, then the official will be replaced. When challenged by subordinates who refused to obey, do not hold an election. I had confirmed that coordinator had embezzled money, when we challenged her, she hired a lawyer to threaten to sue. I should have simply called the police.

Another example: not something I was involved with, but Canadian. When Paul Martin became Prime Minister of Canada, supporters for the previous Prime Minister leaked news of embezzlement that occurred 10 years previously. This wasn't a community organization, this was the federal government of Canada, and the amount of money was not tens of thousands, it was tens of millions. Paul Martin instructed the RCMP, Canada's federal police, to investigate. He also called a judicial inquiry, the strongest action a Prime Minister can take. He didn't pull any punches, but the inquiry was still on-going when the next election was held. The voters did not forgive, they held it against him. The embezzlement was done in 1995, Paul Martin became Prime Minister in 2004, the judicial inquiry ran all 2005. There are strong indications supporters for the previous Prime Minister set up Paul Martin as the patsy. In fact, the whole thing may have been set up specifically to back-stab Paul Martin if he ever became Prime Minister. But voters didn't care. Campaign for the federal election was December 2005 & January 2006, election day was 23 January 2006. Paul Martin lost.

Reports state only one pro-Russian candidate has registered to run for president of Ukraine. This is strategic, it means anti-Russian votes will be split between multiple candidates, while pro-Russian votes will be concentrated. And if pro-Russian insurgents control eastern Ukraine before the election, then the election could go to the pro-Russian candidate.

[PostFactum]

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

PostFactum, I'm very concerned. I understand the issues, but see another problem. You can't hold an election when the current government has lost control. The vote will be biased, and dramatically against the incumbent. The media reports that insurgents now control more government buildings in Eastern Ukraine than not. And a self-proclaimed administrator in Donetsk said he intends to hold a referendum to separate Donetsk from Ukraine on May 11. The Ukraine election is May 25, so if nothing is done then Donetsk will separate before the election. We saw with Crimea that the referendum was not fair: armed thugs with guns on the street, before and during the referendum. Russia military raided a Ukraine oil field outside Crimea and paratroop exercise on the Ukraine border, both the day before the referendum. Ballot boxes were transparent, so everyone could see how an individual voted, and therefore those same armed thugs were there to intimidate voters. And a giant "X" painted on houses of ethnic Tartars.

I was president of a community organization in 2001/2002. The coordinator refused to take direction, and stated her intent to take over the primary fund raising activity and exclude community members who founded the organization. Before I was elected, she had split the organization into three parts; and one program was run by a committee that she called a "board", so four. When she received an order she didn't like from a board of directors, she would claim one of the other boards had authority. So I proposed we merge the organizations, so there's only one board. I first asked community members if they want to do that, and did warn them that if we do this then they have to actually show up at the election. Organizing meetings went on for months. The members got tired, and disgusted. When the election was finally held, only three members showed up, but all of her friends. The entire community lost control of their own organization, the coordinator took control. She ran it as a dictator, ensuring her salary dramatically increased and only her friends were helped. The lesson is voters do not have patience to deal with a problem that lasts months. If the elected official fails to control employees, then the official will be replaced. When challenged by subordinates who refused to obey, do not hold an election. I had confirmed that coordinator had embezzled money, when we challenged her, she hired a lawyer to threaten to sue. I should have simply called the police.

Another example: not something I was involved with, but Canadian. When Paul Martin became Prime Minister of Canada, supporters for the previous Prime Minister leaked news of embezzlement that occurred 10 years previously. This wasn't a community organization, this was the federal government of Canada, and the amount of money was not tens of thousands, it was tens of millions. Paul Martin instructed the RCMP, Canada's federal police, to investigate. He also called a judicial inquiry, the strongest action a Prime Minister can take. He didn't pull any punches, but the inquiry was still on-going when the next election was held. The voters did not forgive, they held it against him. The embezzlement was done in 1995, Paul Martin became Prime Minister in 2004, the judicial inquiry ran all 2005. There are strong indications supporters for the previous Prime Minister set up Paul Martin as the patsy. In fact, the whole thing may have been set up specifically to back-stab Paul Martin if he ever became Prime Minister. But voters didn't care. Campaign for the federal election was December 2005 & January 2006, election day was 23 January 2006. Paul Martin lost.

Reports state only one pro-Russian candidate has registered to run for president of Ukraine. This is strategic, it means anti-Russian votes will be split between multiple candidates, while pro-Russian votes will be concentrated. And if pro-Russian insurgents control eastern Ukraine before the election, then the election could go to the pro-Russian candidate.

Well, we dance on one place, and do it bad. We are scared of 25-th of may because only god knows what trick they can make. Even if East will not vote because of situation, elections will be named as successfull and done. This is not democraticly, but we have no choice. For those one candidate will vote only psycho, because he is from party of our past president. Even East can be dissapointed in him. The largest rating have Tymoshenko and Poroshenko. So I think that one of them will be our president. I wish it will be a woman. Temporary government is doing very bad. And I was telling my theory that Ukrainians will soon live like gypsies - a folk without country. Donezk referendum and their yesterday constitution are just pieces of paper for cleaning back after shiting. Some Ukrainian people say that if East Ukrainians take Russian money and stop Ukrainian tanks, forces, cops take money and go away, do nothing and think that EU is shit and Russia with Putin are Paradise on Earth. Let them go, we can save other part of Ukraine and live in EU than have permanent trouble with morons who are ready to sell mother for 500$.

[Canadian_Mind]

PF, maybe that's what you guys deserve. Freedom and a home aren't a right, they were earned by our forefathers; and if tested, we must pay the same price to earn the right to keep them.

If you feel your government isn't doing what's right, then it's up to you, the common people, to find the solution to your probllem.

[Jabberwalker]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

PF, maybe that's what you guys deserve. Freedom and a home aren't a right, they were earned by our forefathers; and if tested, we must pay the same price to earn the right to keep them.

If you feel your government isn't doing what's right, then it's up to you, the common people, to find the solution to your probllem.

Many Ukrainians fought long and hard against the Soviets both during the Bolshevik Revolution and during WWII. It's a bit of a stretch to say that the Ukraine hasn't "paid the price".

[saturn_656]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Many Ukrainians fought long and hard against the Soviets both during the Bolshevik Revolution and during WWII. It's a bit of a stretch to say that the Ukraine hasn't "paid the price".

That was then.

This is now.

Another bill has come due, and Ivan is looking to collect.

[Canadian_Mind]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

PF, maybe that's what you guys deserve. Freedom and a home aren't a right, they were earned by our forefathers; and if tested, we must pay the same price to earn the right to keep them.

If you feel your government isn't doing what's right, then it's up to you, the common people, to find the solution to your probllem.

Many Ukrainians fought long and hard against the Soviets both during the Bolshevik Revolution and during WWII. It's a bit of a stretch to say that the Ukraine hasn't "paid the price".

That was a century and 3/4 of a century ago, respectively. The time has come again for them, as wrong as it is.

[Goober911]

andyt andyt:

Goober911 Goober911:

andyt andyt:

Explain it to me. What I read on thread is that it's impossible to act, yet it seems even the pres himself expects forces to act. Doing nothing will just give at least Eastern Ukraine to the Russians. Taking on the insurgents may not prevent that, but it might, and at least you can say you tried.

It is impossible to use Military force. Easy to figure out why.

Hint, NATO would blow Russia's military to shit if they went face to face.
Can you tell me why they do not go head to head?

You really insist on misreading the question, along with everybody else. It's not about going head to head with Russia, it's about dealing with a few hundred insurgents. The president of Ukraine expects this to happen, so i'm not alone in questioning wtf is going on here. Maybe there's just a lot more sympathy pro-Russia than we are led to believe.

40 K troops across the border- Number of insurgents? a few hundred - Nope- Lots more than that. Russia plays this game well. Much better as they learned the lessons in Georgia.

[PostFactum]

http://hromadske.tv/society/pershotravneva-demonstratsiya-u-simferopoli-kokosh/

Crimea first of May demonstration.

[Winnipegger]

The man holding the Soviet Union flag is also wearing a Nike purse.

[PostFactum]

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

The man holding the Soviet Union flag is also wearing a Nike purse.

This is modern Russia - Writting from iPhone on Twitter that US is shit.

[PostFactum]

Putin wants tu reborn parody of Soviet Union.

[andyt]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

PF, maybe that's what you guys deserve. Freedom and a home aren't a right, they were earned by our forefathers; and if tested, we must pay the same price to earn the right to keep them.

If you feel your government isn't doing what's right, then it's up to you, the common people, to find the solution to your probllem.

We are told that 70% of the people in East Ukraine don't want to join Russia. If that's true, they're going to have to show it somehow, because at the moment the 30% who favor Russia are taking all the initiative. You can't cry later about the outcome if you didn't take any action to try to prevent it.

I wonder if the 70/30 split is a line of bullshit we're being fed to try to demonize Russia. Maybe the majority of East Ukrainians favor joining Russia, and that's why you see only action by the Russian insurgents. Doesn't make as good a case for outrage over Russia's actions tho, if this is really what the people want.

[PostFactum]

andyt andyt:

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

PF, maybe that's what you guys deserve. Freedom and a home aren't a right, they were earned by our forefathers; and if tested, we must pay the same price to earn the right to keep them.

If you feel your government isn't doing what's right, then it's up to you, the common people, to find the solution to your probllem.

We are told that 70% of the people in East Ukraine don't want to join Russia. If that's true, they're going to have to show it somehow, because at the moment the 30% who favor Russia are taking all the initiative. You can't cry later about the outcome if you didn't take any action to try to prevent it.

I wonder if the 70/30 split is a line of bullshit we're being fed to try to demonize Russia. Maybe the majority of East Ukrainians favor joining Russia, and that's why you see only action by the Russian insurgents. Doesn't make as good a case for outrage over Russia's actions tho, if this is really what the people want.

500$ right now, rivers of gold and mountains of money later. Remember this.

[Winnipegger]

Western countries consider it a crime for a government official to accept a bribe. Criminal. That means incarceration in jail, and disqualified from ever holding a government job again. That $500 is nothing compared to loss of your entire job. And a security guard accepting a bribe from a foreign government is treason.