[ShepherdsDog]

The Catholics only state that they want to convert Jews(how they carried out this conversion was largely a local matter), but they did the same to Christians who had other sciptual interpretations like the Cathars, Semi Arians, Arians and later the Huguenots, Moravians and other early Protestants, as well as some Orthodox Christians. Millions of non Catholic Christians were murdered by the Church.

In the first centuries of the Church, it was the Christians who were persecuted, in part by the Jews, who saw them as heretics and apostates. Herein lies the the roots of hostility.

However the Koran, which is even more contradictory than the Bible, when it comes to others who worship the same God(according to them), states that Jews are animals and should be murdered.

The Nazis based their persecution on eugenics. Not even a Jew who converted was to be allowed to live, even if this conversion happened generations earlier. If their policies, like those of the Church, had been religion based, simple conversion would have sufficed. Children could have been taken away from their parents and been indoctrinated. But since the Nazis viewed things from a psedo scientific perspective they saw the Jewish 'taint' as being genetic, not cultural or philosophical. That's why Jewish infants and children were butchered alongside Jewish adults, Jehovah's Witnesses, pacificists, political dissidents Gypsies, German resistance(including priests, nuns and ministers) and Christians and atheists of Jewish ancestry.

As for the apparent silence of the Church during the Holocaust, here is a good read that tries to explain it.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... sdef2.html

[commanderkai]

Thanos Thanos:

Everything I said previously is backed up by centuries of historical evidince. Not every Christian, or even most Christians, are Jew-haters or murderers. But stating that does not absolve organized Christianity (going all the way back to the Christianization of the late Roman Empire) of being the force that made anti-semitism lethal on a level of megadeath. These are simply the facts.

No, it's your opinion based on your interpretation of the facts. Your interpretation is bolded.

$1:

What happened under the pagan states (Egypt, Babylon, Hittites, etc.) is mostly unknown because it relies mostly on Jewish legend and myth, which like all religious legends and myths, makes the bad guys a million times worse than they actually may have been in reality.

That's not true either. Sure, their stories within the Torah put the enemies of the Jews in a bad light, no doubt, however there are plenty of historical sources beyond religious texts. Tiberius expelled Jews on 19 CE/AD, while the first revolt is recorded upon 66 CE/AD.

$1:

Not so in the periods after the Dark Ages. The known and provable history of Europe is an endless stream of Jew-killing performed by Christians who were inflamed into mass hatred by Christian leaders. This is not logiaclly or factually disputable.

Outside of the whole "known and provable" parts of European history starts only after the "Dark Ages"...yes I don't disagree that Christians killed and oppressed Jews. However, this proves nothing but the historical nature of antisemitism in Europe, not that A) Nazi Germany was a "Christian" country, nor that Hitler conducted the Holocaust due to his reasons.

$1:

And I absolved the Muslims of nothing when it comes to their own Jew-hating, although I would contend (and this is also historically provable) that the worst instances of Muslim anti-Semitism began after the Muslim world began to be influenced by first Nazi German agents attemptimg to stoke up local rebelions against the British, and then by Soviet KGB and East Bloc secret police agents who provided the funding and armaments to the first generations of Muslim terrorists.

Except my said examples occurred outside of Europe, and outside what is considered the "Dark Ages". Muslim antisemitism is not a new phenomenon.

$1:

So, once again, it took influence from an openly Christian nation (Nazi Germany)

How was Nazi Germany openly Christian, when, once again, Hitler happily sent Christian religious figures to the death camps whenever they spoke up against him? Allowing Christian churches to operate does not A) Make said country Christian, nor B) Make the leaders of said country basing policy upon Christian doctrine.

It seriously makes no sense. Hitler drenched some speeches in religious rhetoric. So what? Winston Churchill and FDR, when they signed the Atlantic Charter had the song "Onward, Christian Soldiers" played. Does that make the United States and Britain on some glorious religious Crusade?

$1:

Catholic bishops and other high-level mucky-mucks in the Church are going on about the "Jew mdeia" crucifying them over the recent peodophile scandals.

I assume you mean this?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 095471.ece

Now, on top of this guy seemingly being retired, and he denies it, this STILL means nothing considering that ONE person being a fucktard does not mean the entire organization based their opinions upon said fucktard. Groupthink=stupid.

$1:

And one of Ratzingers first acts was to allow back in to the fold an extremist Jew-hating English bishop that JPII had wisely excommunicated.

The Pope (And the Church), wanted to heal wounds between the Church and the Society of St. Pius X. An Archbishop ordained four Bishops without Papal approval. As such, the Pope John Paul II excommunicated the Archbishop, and the four said Bishops (as in, the one you just mentioned) because they conducted a schism within the Catholic Church. That's why he, the three other Bishops, and the Archbishop were excommunicated, and not because said bishop was an antisemite.

Pope Benedict XVI lifted their excommunication. HOWEVER, that does not make them bishops in the Catholic Church. Basically it saves all four men from burning in hell.

$1:

What does that alone tell you about the lasting influcence of Jew-hatred in the Catholic Church.

It tells me one potentially active, or retired bishop is a douchebag (if he actually said it), and one illegitimate bishop that was instantly excommunicated because of the actions of an Archbishop (who was also excommunicated) was also an antisemitic douchebag.

Anti-Semitism will always exist as long as Jews exist. Much like racism will exist (white on black, black on white, so on and so forth) as long as races exist, and anti-Catholic bigotry will exist as long as the Catholic Church exists. There will always be stupid beliefs because humans are stupid.

$1:

Don't tell me I'm a bitchy atheist that's just making this stuff up. Hell, it's so sordid that even the most creative athesit writer or demogogue would have a hard time making it up if it hadn't already occurred in reality.

More you are twisting facts and interpreting them to fit your narrow political views, specifically against the Catholic Church. Which is fine, really. Anybody can have opinions about any historical issues, especially those without a truly factual explanation. The motivations of those who planned and carried out the Holocaust is still up for debate.

I see Christian fueled antisemitism as an indirect cause of the Holocaust, specifically about how oppression of the Jewish populations of Europe was generally accepted. However, considering how widespread antisemitism was across the globe (Canada, the US, the Middle East) before the rise of Hitler. However, Hitler's motivations, in my opinion, fit what ShepherdsDog stated. His beliefs over eugenics, and not religion, motivated Hitler to carry out the Holocaust.

[Mustang1]

commanderkai commanderkai:

The motivations of those who planned and carried out the Holocaust is still up for debate.

Really? Sounds like intellectual/historical relativism.

[DerbyX]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Why not? You've made a strawman out of every Christian on earth and you've made one out of me. I made the radical offer to off those awful Christians who are allegedly oppressing you to make the point that there are no Christians oppressing you. And there are no Christians oppressing you, you just hate Christians.

Well first off you obviously do not understand what a strawman argument is. I don't claim some falsehood about christianity or its proponents said christians. On the contrary my feelings for it are based entirely on its core beliefs and those beliefs are proudly held by said christians. Any religion that tells me I'm immoral simply for not believing in it says it all right there. As for your continual assertion I claim christians are trying to force me to convert well that is just a lie. Make no mistake though that some have attempted to convert me and your failure to convert me is part and parcel to your myth of me hating christians (note the people not the faith). I have no argument with christians so long as they aren't trying to convert me or make laws that force their faith on me. What I have always maintained is that I have met many christians who upon finding out I'm an Atheists use that basis to judge me harshly and treat me differently.

You OTOH hate all muslims to the point where you even consider those whom I call moderates to not actually be muslims in your eyes. You think nothing of enacting laws designed to target them specifically where I have held no such belief against christians. You have openly advocated a policy of warfare against them to the point of stating your belief that soldiers should be sent into every mosque and mandrasah with the express purpose of forcibly converting them from their "violent nature" which I must now conclude means converting them completely from islam since you have made it clear you consider the entire faith to be violent and predatory (the irony is lost on nobody). I've never advocated such a policy against christians and in fact have always spoken highly of those who actually live the life I imagine you christians try and convince me your faith is all about, namely people like the Amish. You OTOH seem to lead a life so far out of that I doubt other then believing in JC your life is inherently more christian then mine. I doubt his teachings include hating an entire faith (especially one that believes and honours him) based on ignorance, bigotry, and personal dislike. Of course you wouldn't be the first christian hating an entire religion and you won't be the last.

Now go ahead and explain to me how coming up here and killing christians trying to convert me is in any way a christian act (christian acts as upheld by those claiming such acts invalidate ones christianity of course).

Of course according to some the west really doesn't know islam as this albeit very undocumented source tells me. I'm sure they got a top ten lost of misconceptions about christianity too. In fact if you scroll down to religion they have more then a few top 10 lists in related topics. This is a wonderful and fascinating site BTW. Lots of great diverse stuff especially all the mystery ones.

Now while you are ranting and raving about muslim loans being yet another infiltration of islam into our society and the start of sharia law you might want to read this. Take note of the site because I'll be referencing it later.

$1:

Religious courts already exist in the UK. They help individuals settle disputes, but can only act as long as both or all parties agree to the process. Their final arbitration decisions are binding and enforceable. Criminal matters are reserved for the UK's state courts.

Jewish Beth Din courts at Finchley in north London arbitrate disputes in which both parties are Jewish. They provide binding civil arbitration. They do not try to replace the state's civil courts. David Frei of Beth Din said:

In fact jewish courts exist in the US and function much like (if not exactly like) binding arbitration as are what all those judge shows use. Hardly what you make of it. Well that rambled on a bit longer then I thought and I have others to respond to.

2Cdo 2Cdo:

Other than the Jehovahs knocking at your door, who are these ominous Christians that are attempting to forcibly convert you to their faith?

As an ex Christian, which Christians have called for your death unless you return to the faith?

Bart is right, your hatred of Christianity blinds you to the horrors of other religious groups.

Well right off the bat you are wrong by being sucked into Barts myth that I claim christians are trying to forcibly convert me. They aren't (and neither are muslims for that matter, neither myself, or Bart, or you). I've already explained the "oppression" comes in the form of how I get treated be some upon learning I am an Atheist and its not unlike how Jews have (for over a millenia) been treated by "gentiles" who find out and most certainly that experienced by homosexuals who find that disclosing their sexuality caused exactly the same reaction (by the same people too). Need I remind you of the very un-Jesus like behaviour of christians towards homosexuals? It is certainly very present in the US military (and probably ours) as simply being gay can lead to a perfectly competent and patriotic soldier having his/her career destroyed. Similar stories exist for Atheists although they are far less common then they were during say the Macarthy era.

Now your statement about my hatred for christianity blinding me to the horrors of other religious groups makes no sense. Why would it? If any thing my being a "raving Atheist" would see me denouncing their horrors as well under the "all religion is evil" theory. I'm not because I take context into account. Far from not recognizing the atrocities they commit I simply maintain a) we aren't any better then they are (us being the west in this case); b) christians aren't any better then they are; and c) Its up to them to mature their socities and not us to force it on them.

I have also come under fire from you and Bart (plus a few others) when I point out that their religion is most cases is not the underlying cause of the conflict whereas you et al have almost universally blamed any violence surrounding any muslim soley on that basis alone. You guys said that about muslims killing christians in Nigeria. You certainly did not blame religion when it was christians killing christians in Rwanda. The entire Chechnyan conflict is now all about those blood thirsty muslim savages rather then them retaliating for their treatment under various Russian rulers for over a century.

In fact if were any other defined religious group or visible ethnic group other then muslims you guys would be using this as an example of Russian military aggression and the danger they pose (like was done in Ossetia). Recall that the very muslims we now fight were the very people we aided as mujahideen freedom fighters resisting Soviet occupation.

You said "a women for children, a boy for pleasure, and a goat for exctasy. That says all I need to know about islam". Aside from it being an astounding picture of ignorance akin to me making some statement about Jews and money it tells me you were being less then truthful about them "accepting us with open arms" and how we are fighting for them. Really? Doesn't the reality that those boy rapers are our allies and that the Taliban were the guys who put an stop to that mean anything"? Think the people whom you say welcome us with open arms know what you think of their core belief? Well on that I think they do considering that about 10% of the people support the Taliban and 10% of the people support the government and the rest hate both groups and all the foreigners to boot equally.

You say I'm blind to the horrors of their religion yet you are the person who supports not only training these people in warfare but quipping them as well. Not to wise considering you think the entire faith is a bunch of homosexual pedophile warmongers with tendencies towards beastiality.

Now I might say the same about you guys in that your hatred towards them means you only see the bad they do and your support for your religion (and it doubles for political belief as well) means you ignore the horrors it does.

Even setting aside the whole Hitler/Nazi - christian debate we still have many modern examples, Rwanda, Serbia and Guatemala to name a few, whereby those holding christian beliefs engaged in genocide. Hell even church officials got involved. In all these cases though you simply over look their religious beliefs and find something else to blame it on. It goes both ways.

CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:

Are you kidding me???

1) The 'Holocaust' was due to a madman dictator that coerced everyone. Christianity had nothing to do with that.

2) Genocides like Rwanda happen a lot in Africa, and again, Christianity had
nothing to do with that. If the perpetrators said they did this in the name of God, everyone should automatically know it's B.S. Our God doesn't tell people to commit these heinous acts.

Get your facts straight.

You get your facts straight fella. You said "You don't see christians flying planes into buildings" and I responded that "no we don't but we do see them doing this", "this" being genocide.

That it may not have been a casus belli is irrelevant since your claim was you don't see them doing those acts.

I just proved that indeed they do. Christians do indeed commit very very terrible acts no different then what you guys say muslims are doing.

[DerbyX]

Mustang1 Mustang1:

commanderkai commanderkai:

The motivations of those who planned and carried out the Holocaust is still up for debate.

Really? Sounds like intellectual/historical relativism.

It is and on par for him. Next to holocaust deniers this is the worst of historical revisionism. It uses circular logic as its base and a moral superiority argument akin to Nazi "master race" rhetoric in that it claims since no christian could do something like that (demonstrably false) Hitler could therefore not be christian.

Notice the failure of logic where they claim that because they targeted some christian church leaders he must therefore not have been christian. Aside form the many examples of one church doing just that to other churches (as well as their own) I suppose it means Hitler wasn't German either (Although I'm aware he was born in Austria) because he targeted some Germans.

The fact is that he trageted some christian leaders not because of beliefs but because they spoke out against him and his policies. Quite different from targeting people specifically for an identifiable trait like being Jewish.

[SprCForr]

and that concludes our side visit...

Time to head back to Times Square.

Thanks.