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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:09 pm
 


ManifestDestiny ManifestDestiny:
bootlegga bootlegga:
Thanos Thanos:

quote "ManifestDestiny"
I have to ask you a serious question. Are you gainfully employed and do you pay taxes? end


I run my own business.
I'm up in McMurray almost all the time as part of the filthy oil patch.
I made an average of $75K per year for the last five years.
I pay my fair share of taxes, both corporate and personal.

I also don't piss and moan like a fucking four-year old (or an American) about tin-hatted communist tyrannies or mythical welfare leeches.

You're part of what's called a "Society", whether you like it or not. Look it up in the goddamn encyclopedia to find out what it means. What it doesn't mean is that the richest or the most vicious get to win all the time.

Grow the hell up already. Or, more appropriately in your case, go join some compound like the Branch Davidians or the militia nuts and live the rest of your life in shivering, paranoid terror about the government coming to take away all of your stuff. You people and your "rugged individualist" crap died out about the same time as the Old West did.


R=UP

Great post, I'd rep if I could!



Why cause he does not make enough for owning his own business


Ahh, the good old American "I have to make a gajillion dollars or my life was an abject failure" attitude. There is far more to life than making money.

Perhaps someday, after your wife has divorced you and your children refuse to speak to a 'total stranger' of a father (of course this all assumes you're capable of getting married and having a family - I know it's a rather large assumption on my part, but I'll take that chance), then you'll see things differently.

Try working to live instead of living to work and you're quality of life will vastly improve.

No, his post is a great one because he tells it the way it is, not the fairyland vision you seem to have of life. Like Thanos said, grow up.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:23 pm
 


Lemmy Lemmy:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Read the pdf - that comes from publicly available tax information.


Tax returns aren't a good measure of charitable donations in Canada. To be a claimable deduction, you have to donate thousands if you make a decent wage. Few Canadians bother to claim their charitable donations because it has no effect on their tax return. For me, I usually donate between $500 and $1000 per year, but I never claim it because I make too much money for it to matter.


You understand you're illustrating the point for the Fraser Institute, right?

If your charitable deductions are so insignificant that they're not worth bothering with then... :idea:


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:30 pm
 


andyt andyt:
50 million uninsured is about 1/6 of your pop, no?


The 50 million figure is contestable:

http://spectator.org/archives/2009/03/2 ... 46-million


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:37 pm
 


BartSimpson BartSimpson:
You understand you're illustrating the point for the Fraser Institute, right?

If your charitable deductions are so insignificant that they're not worth bothering with then... :idea:


I'd like to think $1,000 is significant, even though it's of no use to me for tax purposes. Maybe not, maybe I'm a cheap prick (insert Scottish joke, if you feel the need). :D


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:38 pm
 


N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:
bootlegga bootlegga:
N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:
Ultimately it's a film about the power of the people to bring down an evilarchy.

Americans should all wear those masks when they go to the polls in November. That would be cool.

In fact, if I can wear one, go ahead, book me on Stewart. :D


The "evilarchy" got voted out in 2008.


Hey, no fair. Using my own term against me. Good one. I should give you rep for that, but I'm too petty. :wink:

Actually "an" evilarchy got voted out in 2008, and was replaced by the new, improved model. :P

OK, so why should Canadians care, and do the critics of the could-care-less-about-real-healthcare "reform" in American really not want Americans to have healthcare?

I'll talking point it. It's all that's needed. You all know the arguments. Might as well post them though, so it doesn't look like there is no reasoned debate.

Here's the counter-points most often given.

Personal liberty matters. Not just to America, which might be the last bastion, but to all as a light in the dark.

Big government controls weakens the American economy at a time the world (and Canada in particular) least needs a weak America.

It isn't just about healthcare. It's the socialist control of banks, auto industry, energy, et al. It's the general movement that's bad policy. The transformation of America from home of the free to home of the managed is spooky.

Nobody doesn't want healthcare for poor Americans. Even Nixon had a plan for it. The argument has never been about whether they need it. It's always been about how to do it. Republicans did have multiple plans on ways to move towards the goal through market reforms, without destroying the economy, or big government control encroaching on personal liberty. Google Paul Ryan for one.


Sorry, I forgot to add the smiley - :lol: - (I was being sarcastic) after evilarchy.

I think what you are missing Fiddledog, is that healthcare is a right as important to Canadians as personal liberty or gun ownership is to Americans.

There are few advocates of an American-style medical system (the uber-wealthy and the right), but the majority of Canadians see your system as a horror show, much in the same way you view our gun control laws.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:38 pm
 


BartSimpson BartSimpson:
bootlegga bootlegga:
No doubt, it almost seems as if some Americans (generally the wealthy and the right) actually want their fellow human beings to suffer. It begs comprehension, especially given that many of them are 'Christians'. I guess most of them never read the bits about love thy fellow man and Christian charity...


According to your own Fraser Institute it is Canadians who fall short on charitable giving when compared to Americans.

http://www.envision.ca/pdf/news/FraserInstitute.pdf

I guess you people never read those bits about loving thy fellow man and Christian charity, eh? :wink:


First off, who said I was a Christian?

Second off, you can cherry pick stats all you want, but that doesn't mean that you are right. For example, most of my donations are done because I care about the charity in question, not because I want a tax break. I didn't get a single penny for the several hundred hours I spent last year writing a marketing plan for a seniors organization here in Edmonton. Same goes for all their special events and board meetings I participate in. I also don't get a tax break because I bought some extra KD for the Food Bank bin at the entrance of Costco.

However, in case you want some stats, how about these numbers;

$1:
Both the number of volunteers and the volunteer rate rose over the year ended in September 2009, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. About
63.4 million people, or 26.8 percent of the population, volunteered through
or for an organization at least once between September 2008 and September
2009. In 2008, the volunteer rate was 26.4 percent.


http://www.bls.gov/news.release/volun.nr0.htm

Meanwhile, here in Canada;

$1:
Almost 12.5 million Canadians or 46% of the population aged 15 and over, volunteered during the one-year period preceding the survey. The rate of volunteering is largely unchanged from the 45% reported in 2004. However, the number of volunteers has increased by 5.7% due, in part, to the increase in the size of the population aged 15 and older.


http://www.givingandvolunteering.ca/fil ... s_2007.pdf

So it sounds like you guys have a deeper pocketbooks, while we donate our time. I would argue that time is more valuable than money, simply because we have all have other priorities in life - be it family, work, school, whatever. After all, wasn't the US who criticized the Japanese for 'checkbook diplomacy' during the first Gulf War?

Oh yeah, here it is (still happening too);

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pac ... -woap.html


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:41 pm
 


BartSimpson BartSimpson:
andyt andyt:
50 million uninsured is about 1/6 of your pop, no?


The 50 million figure is contestable:

http://spectator.org/archives/2009/03/2 ... 46-million


He contests the figure because 10 million of those aren't citzens. In Canada we cover all legal residents - sounds like a plan to me.

He says many people have part time coverage - yeah, they have it when they're well enough to work. If they get sick, coverage disappears. Doesn't sound like a plan to me.

Look at the 67% of bankruptcies caused by health care - that is a truly frightening statistic.

What we need in Canada is a system such as France. They seem to have much better outcomes for the same expenditure. My hope is that as the US makes progress in providing sane healthcare to it's citzens, there will be less danger in Canada of opening up the health care debate becoming one of copying the US insanity. My hope is that one day we will try to emulate the Americans, because they're doing such a good job of it. Maybe not in my lifetime tho.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:42 pm
 


Lemmy Lemmy:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
You understand you're illustrating the point for the Fraser Institute, right?

If your charitable deductions are so insignificant that they're not worth bothering with then... :idea:


I'd like to think $1,000 is significant, even though it's of no use to me for tax purposes. Maybe not, maybe I'm a cheap prick (insert Scottish joke, if you feel the need). :D


$1,000 is significant because it beats the hell out of nothing. :wink:

Mrs. Bart and I generally run around 12% on our deductible charitable contributions and around 2%-3% on non-deductible charitable contributions (like to foreign charities that are not registered in the USA).

What's funny is that I never seem to miss the money we give away.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:45 pm
 


N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:
bootlegga bootlegga:
N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:
Ultimately it's a film about the power of the people to bring down an evilarchy.

Americans should all wear those masks when they go to the polls in November. That would be cool.

In fact, if I can wear one, go ahead, book me on Stewart. :D


The "evilarchy" got voted out in 2008.


Hey, no fair. Using my own term against me. Good one. I should give you rep for that, but I'm too petty. :wink:


I'm not so I gave it to him. :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:45 pm
 


andyt andyt:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
andyt andyt:
50 million uninsured is about 1/6 of your pop, no?


The 50 million figure is contestable:

http://spectator.org/archives/2009/03/2 ... 46-million


He contests the figure because 10 million of those aren't citzens. In Canada we cover all legal residents - sounds like a plan to me.


Eh, that's a part of it. He also states that a great deal of them make enough money to afford health insurance, and a good number are young and choose not to pay for health insurance due to being young and healthy (which is dumb, but people can do stupid things)


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:51 pm
 


bootlegga bootlegga:
Ahh, the good old American "I have to make a gajillion dollars or my life was an abject failure" attitude. There is far more to life than making money.

Perhaps someday, after your wife has divorced you and your children refuse to speak to a 'total stranger' of a father (of course this all assumes you're capable of getting married and having a family - I know it's a rather large assumption on my part, but I'll take that chance), then you'll see things differently.

Try working to live instead of living to work and you're quality of life will vastly improve.

No, his post is a great one because he tells it the way it is, not the fairyland vision you seem to have of life. Like Thanos said, grow up.



Frist off you know nothing about me. Dont assume anything about my life (like bigots do) and please dont drag my family into this. You have no clue the type of Father I am, and to say dispariging things about my family because we have different ideoligies is low. And if anyone needs to grow up its you.

Thanos stated he makes 75 k a year owning his own business, I feel he can go to work for a oil company and make the same if not more with out the headaches, and in your estimate that makes me a greedy American. You are ignorant sir and scared of what the uncertainties of life have to offer. This you have shown me I HAVE NOT ASSUMED THIS!


Last edited by ManifestDestiny on Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:52 pm
 


commanderkai commanderkai:

Eh, that's a part of it. He also states that a great deal of them make enough money to afford health insurance, and a good number are young and choose not to pay for health insurance due to being young and healthy (which is dumb, but people can do stupid things)


Yes, but some of those people will cost the US when they do have medical needs. Even if they die, losing healthy young people is not usually in a nation's interest.

As Dianne Francis points out, the US insurance system is a mugs game. The govt insures the high risk groups: veterans, indigent, elderly, while the insurance companies get to make obscene profits from the cream. What a way to run a country. Or are you seriously suggesting the govt should get out of insuring those high risk groups? Wasn't one of the Teabagger rallying cries "keep your government hands off my medicare?"


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:55 pm
 


bootlegga bootlegga:
First off, who said I was a Christian?


Far be it from me to accuse you of such a thing. :wink:

bootlegga bootlegga:
Second off, you can cherry pick stats all you want, but that doesn't mean that you are right. For example, most of my donations are done because I care about the charity in question, not because I want a tax break. I didn't get a single penny for the several hundred hours I spent last year writing a marketing plan for a seniors organization here in Edmonton. Same goes for all their special events and board meetings I participate in. I also don't get a tax break because I bought some extra KD for the Food Bank bin at the entrance of Costco.


Last I checked, you can deduct your expenses as a volunteer and if you're this busy then perhaps you should.

bootlegga bootlegga:
However, in case you want some stats, how about these numbers;

$1:
Both the number of volunteers and the volunteer rate rose over the year ended in September 2009, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. About
63.4 million people, or 26.8 percent of the population, volunteered through
or for an organization at least once between September 2008 and September
2009. In 2008, the volunteer rate was 26.4 percent.


http://www.bls.gov/news.release/volun.nr0.htm

Meanwhile, here in Canada;

$1:
Almost 12.5 million Canadians or 46% of the population aged 15 and over, volunteered during the one-year period preceding the survey. The rate of volunteering is largely unchanged from the 45% reported in 2004. However, the number of volunteers has increased by 5.7% due, in part, to the increase in the size of the population aged 15 and older.


http://www.givingandvolunteering.ca/fil ... s_2007.pdf

So it sounds like you guys have a deeper pocketbooks, while we donate our time. I would argue that time is more valuable than money, simply because we have all have other priorities in life - be it family, work, school, whatever. After all, wasn't the US who criticized the Japanese for 'checkbook diplomacy' during the first Gulf War?

Oh yeah, here it is (still happening too);

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pac ... -woap.html


The disparity in volunteerism is along racial lines in the US. Whites volunteer more than any other group. The same can be said for Canada where whites are a larger part of the population. As immigration reduces the percentage of whites in Canada it'll be interesting if those Canadian values of volunteerism are imparted to the immigrants.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:59 pm
 


If some reports are to be believed, the Democrats will pass the Senate health care bill with some reconciliation changes later today. Thus, it is worthwhile to take a comprehensive look at the freedoms we will lose.

Of course, the bill is supposed to provide us with security. But it will result in skyrocketing insurance costs and physicians leaving the field in droves, making it harder to afford and find medical care. We may be about to live Benjamin Franklin’s adage, “People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.”

The sections described below are taken from HR 3590 as agreed to by the Senate and from the reconciliation bill as displayed by the Rules Committee.

1. You are young and don’t want health insurance? You are starting up a small business and need to minimize expenses, and one way to do that is to forego health insurance? Tough. You have to pay $750 annually for the “privilege.” (Section 1501)

2. You are young and healthy and want to pay for insurance that reflects that status? Tough. You’ll have to pay for premiums that cover not only you, but also the guy who smokes three packs a day, drink a gallon of whiskey and eats chicken fat off the floor. That’s because insurance companies will no longer be able to underwrite on the basis of a person’s health status. (Section 2701).

3. You would like to pay less in premiums by buying insurance with lifetime or annual limits on coverage? Tough. Health insurers will no longer be able to offer such policies, even if that is what customers prefer. (Section 2711).

4. Think you’d like a policy that is cheaper because it doesn’t cover preventive care or requires cost-sharing for such care? Tough. Health insurers will no longer be able to offer policies that do not cover preventive services or offer them with cost-sharing, even if that’s what the customer wants. (Section 2712).

5. You are an employer and you would like to offer coverage that doesn’t allow your employers’ slacker children to stay on the policy until age 26? Tough. (Section 2714).

6. You must buy a policy that covers ambulatory patient services, emergency services, hospitalization, maternity and newborn care, mental health and substance use disorder services, including behavioral health treatment; prescription drugs; rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices; laboratory services; preventive and wellness services; chronic disease management; and pediatric services, including oral and vision care.
You’re a single guy without children? Tough, your policy must cover pediatric services. You’re a woman who can’t have children? Tough, your policy must cover maternity services. You’re a teetotaler? Tough, your policy must cover substance abuse treatment. (Add your own violation of personal freedom here.) (Section 1302).

7. Do you want a plan with lots of cost-sharing and low premiums? Well, the best you can do is a “Bronze plan,” which has benefits that provide benefits that are actuarially equivalent to 60% of the full actuarial value of the benefits provided under the plan. Anything lower than that, tough. (Section 1302 (d)(1)(A))

8. You are an employer in the small-group insurance market and you’d like to offer policies with deductibles higher than $2,000 for individuals and $4,000 for families? Tough. (Section 1302 (c) (2) (A).

9. If you are a large employer (defined as at least 101 employees) and you do not want to provide health insurance to your employee, then you will pay a $750 fine per employee (It could be $2,000 to $3,000 under the reconciliation changes). Think you know how to better spend that money? Tough. (Section 1513).
10. You are an employer who offers health flexible spending arrangements and your employees want to deduct more than $2,500 from their salaries for it? Sorry, can’t do that. (Section 9005 (i)).

11. If you are a physician and you don’t want the government looking over your shoulder? Tough. The Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to use your claims data to issue you reports that measure the resources you use, provide information on the quality of care you provide, and compare the resources you use to those used by other physicians. Of course, this will all be just for informational purposes. It’s not like the government will ever use it to intervene in your practice and patients’ care. Of course not. (Section 3003 (i))

12. If you are a physician and you want to own your own hospital, you must be an owner and have a “Medicare provider agreement” by Feb. 1, 2010. (Dec. 31, 2010 in the reconciliation changes.) If you didn’t have those by then, you are out of luck. (Section 6001 (i) (1) (A)).

13. If you are a physician owner and you want to expand your hospital? Well, you can’t (Section 6001 (i) (1) (B). Unless, it is located in a country where, over the last five years, population growth has been 150% of what it has been in the state (Section 6601 (i) (3) ( E)). And then you cannot increase your capacity by more than 200% (Section 6001 (i) (3) (C)).

14. You are a health insurer and you want to raise premiums to meet costs? Well, if that increase is deemed “unreasonable” by the Secretary of Health and Human Services it will be subject to review and can be denied. (Section 1003)

15. The government will extract a fee of $2.3 billion annually from the pharmaceutical industry. If you are a pharmaceutical company what you will pay depends on the ratio of the number of brand-name drugs you sell to the total number of brand-name drugs sold in the U.S. So, if you sell 10% of the brand-name drugs in the U.S., what you pay will be 10% multiplied by $2.3 billion, or $230,000,000. (Under reconciliation, it starts at $2.55 billion, jumps to $3 billion in 2012, then to $3.5 billion in 2017 and $4.2 billion in 2018, before settling at $2.8 billion in 2019 (Section 1404)). Think you, as a pharmaceutical executive, know how to better use that money, say for research and development? Tough. (Section 9008 (b)).


16. The government will extract a fee of $2 billion annually from medical device makers. If you are a medical device maker what you will pay depends on your share of medical device sales in the U.S. So, if you sell 10% of the medical devices in the U.S., what you pay will be 10% multiplied by $2 billion, or $200,000,000. Think you, as a medical device maker, know how to better use that money, say for R&D? Tough. (Section 9009 (b)).
The reconciliation package turns that into a 2.9% excise tax for medical device makers. Think you, as a medical device maker, know how to better use that money, say for research and development? Tough. (Section 1405).

17. The government will extract a fee of $6.7 billion annually from insurance companies. If you are an insurer, what you will pay depends on your share of net premiums plus 200% of your administrative costs. So, if your net premiums and administrative costs are equal to 10% of the total, you will pay 10% of $6.7 billion, or $670,000,000. In the reconciliation bill, the fee will start at $8 billion in 2014, $11.3 billion in 2015, $1.9 billion in 2017, and $14.3 billion in 2018 (Section 1406).Think you, as an insurance executive, know how to better spend that money? Tough.(Section 9010 (b) (1) (A and B).)

18. If an insurance company board or its stockholders think the CEO is worth more than $500,000 in deferred compensation? Tough.(Section 9014).

19. You will have to pay an additional 0.5% payroll tax on any dollar you make over $250,000 if you file a joint return and $200,000 if you file an individual return. What? You think you know how to spend the money you earned better than the government? Tough. (Section 9015).
That amount will rise to a 3.8% tax if reconciliation passes. It will also apply to investment income, estates, and trusts. You think you know how to spend the money you earned better than the government? Like you need to ask. (Section 1402).

20. If you go for cosmetic surgery, you will pay an additional 5% tax on the cost of the procedure. Think you know how to spend that money you earned better than the government? Tough. (Section 9017).


http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysi ... alhill.htm


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:06 pm
 


This thing will not pass judicial muster.


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