[Freakinoldguy]

I got to thinking about Islam and slavery and decided to look it up. Well this is a question and answer about slvery on a site called Sunniforum.

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthr ... s-in-Islam

$1:

I have been a brother for 3 years so forgive me if I am not that fresh on my info. I registered here specifically because of my curiosity on this one question. But In'Sha'Allah I will post here for all my question on Islam in the future.

Amma Bayt,

Bismillah,

It is my understanding after doing substantial research that during a time of war, when slaves are taken, men may have sexual relations with their slave girls or women whom they possess.

I have read this multiple times in the Qur'an. I do not have the exact verse but I assume that most people here are knowledgable enough to know that the verse does exist. It says "you may have sexual relations with the slave girls whom your right hand possesses".

Now I am aware that Islam is not preferred in Islam and that it's actually Islam's goal to eradicate it. But I would like to know what everyone thinks about this?

It concerns me that many Muslims are willing to throw these Qur'anic verses out the window and say "Slavery is now haraam". I'm trying to understand it all myself, but I think it is clear that the Qur'an is the final guide for humanity, it is an eternal law, and thus we do not have the right to abrogate any of what it says by ourselves, just because we might not like it

It is historically known not only through history, but through our Hadiths, that the original Muslims, including the Prophet (SAW), did take slaves from the enemies and had sex with the females.

I know that this might be a hot topic, but it needs to be set straight in my head. Throughout my research, I've seen a lot of Muslims agree that yes, this sexual relations with slaves practice is legit, but that the slave women must always consent to the relations, or else it is zina. But I have seen absolute zero proof to this claim and I don't like the idea of making up rules to Islam. The Qur'an (or Sunnah) gives the final word, no?

Even if slavery is now haraam, we have to keep in mind that it was at one point, legal, and that those were real people with real feelings.

So can anyone provide proof to this consent idea? And what is your opinion? /quote]

And here's the reply:

$1:

23:5. “And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts, from illegal sexual acts).
23:6. Except from their wives or (the captives and slaves) that their right hands possess, for then, they are free from blame;”

70:29. “And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts from illegal sexual acts) .
79:30. Except with their wives and the (women slaves and captives) whom their right hands possess, for (then) they are not to be blamed,”

4:24. “Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you…”

Sahih Muslim, Book 8, Number 3432 (also 3433, 3434): “Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah be pleased with him) reported that at the Battle of Hanain Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that: "And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (iv. 24)" (i. e. they were lawful for them when their 'Idda period came to an end).”

Sahih Muslim, Book 8, Number 3371 (3371-3388):
“Abu Sirma said to Abu Sa'id al Khadri (Allah he pleased with him): O Abu Sa'id, did you hear Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) mentioning al-'azl? He said: Yes, and added: We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.”

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 34, Number 432:
“Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: that while he was sitting with Allah's Apostle he said, "O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The Prophet said, “Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.””

Malik’s Muwatta, Book 30, Number 30.2.13:
Yahya related to me from Malik that Abdullah ibn Dinar said, "A man came to Abdullah ibn Umar when I was with him at the place where judgments were given and asked him about the suckling of an older person. Abdullah ibn Umar replied, 'A man came to Umar ibn al-Khattab and said, 'I have a slave-girl and I used to have intercourse with her. My wife went to her and suckled her. When I went to the girl, my wife told me to watch out, because she had suckled her!' Umar told him to beat his wife and to go to his slave-girl because kinship by suckling was only by the suckling of the young.' "

Malik’s Muwatta, Book 29, Number 29.32.100:
Yahya related to me from Malik from Humayd ibn Qays al-Makki that a man called Dhafif said that Ibn Abbas was asked about coitus interruptus. He called a slave-girl of his and said, "Tell them." She was embarrassed. He said, "It is alright, and I do it myself." Malik said, "A man does not practise coitus interruptus with a free woman unless she gives her permission. There is no harm in practising coitus interruptus with a slave-girl without her permission. Someone who has someone else's slave-girl as a wife, does not practise coitus interruptus with her unless her people give him permission."

Are these just a couple of internet perverts sitting at their keyboards dreaming or is this endemic to the religion as a whole? The first guy says Islam is trying to eradicate slavery but seems to be far to fascinated with it for it to just be a passing question and given the reply it would appear that alot of "good Muslims" couldn't give a shit what their religion says when it comes to slavery because the good book allows it so, they appear to be hell bent on keeping this barbaric practice alive.

[andyt]

As Martin pointed out, most slaves are kept in India and China. Now those are also the most populous countries, but they sure ain't Muslim. The Koran talks about slaves and says its OK, but then the old testament is full of it as well. So getting all holy holy about it's the Muslims is just bullshit. As the FBI piece I quoted, it's worldwide. Europe has a lot of sex slavery, mostly done by eastern europeans and eastern european victims.

So you can dig up a couple of Muslims talking about it, but you have your head up your ass if you think this is primarily a Muslim problem. These guys are talkign about it, the ones taking the slaves are too busy making money to bother getting on chats about it. It's one of the most lucrative crimes in the world.

So why not just google slavery, especially sex slavery, instead of already being biased and looking only at Muslims.

As I said, this story has so much more we could be discussing than "it's the Muslims" Why is a Christian president so lackadaisical about finding these girls, when their relatives found them right away, just didn't have the power to get them back? Why is his wife more interested in having people protesting this act jailed than helping to find these girls?

[andyt]

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT [turns out it's not just the old testament]}\)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)


Are these passages never taught in church. Don't many believe the bible is the inerrant word of God?

[Freakinoldguy]

andyt andyt:

As Martin pointed out, most slaves are kept in India and China. Now those are also the most populous countries, but they sure ain't Muslim. The Koran talks about slaves and says its OK, but then the old testament is full of it as well. So getting all holy holy about it's the Muslims is just bullshit. As the FBI piece I quoted, it's worldwide. Europe has a lot of sex slavery, mostly done by eastern europeans and eastern european victims.

So you can dig up a couple of Muslims talking about it, but you have your head up your ass if you think this is primarily a Muslim problem. These guys are talkign about it, the ones taking the slaves are too busy making money to bother getting on chats about it. It's one of the most lucrative crimes in the world.

So why not just google slavery, especially sex slavery, instead of already being biased and looking only at Muslims.

As I said, this story has so much more we could be discussing than "it's the Muslims" Why is a Christian president so lackadaisical about finding these girls, when their relatives found them right away, just didn't have the power to get them back? Why is his wife more interested in having people protesting this act jailed than helping to find these girls?

The topic was Boko Haram and their kidnapping of 300 female children as slaves not Eastern European slave traders, Christian slaves from the old testament or lucrative crimes involving human trafficking.

If you'd like to discuss any of those topics I'd suggest you get off your soap box and start a new thread reflecting your concerns about white, yellow and brown peoples who practice this vile occupation otherwise it's still about Muslims radicals taking slaves. Hence my asking if the two perverts on the forum were an aberration or was this endemic of the religion and if you noticed I didn't ask what other religions, cultures, colours or countries practiced this crap.

As for the President of Nigeria not searching for the victims well, let's just put it like this. He probably doesn't have anywhere near the resources of the MUSLIM kidnappers because if I was to hazard a guess I'd say they're funded by the clowns from countries like Saudi Arabia, Yemen or any other of the myriad of countries that supports the export of Islam and the domination of non Islamic countries through violence and revolution. So, given that fact it's quite possible that your invocation that it's Africa for the Africans is as antiquated as the cry of Vietnam for the Vietnamese seems now.

So I'll, as you so delicately put it, take my head out of my ass when you stop co-opting any threads that mention Muslims by using misdirection, strawmen, and your patented 1960's rhetoric.

[Freakinoldguy]

andyt andyt:

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT [turns out it's not just the old testament]}\)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)


Are these passages never taught in church. Don't many believe the bible is the inerrant word of God?

When was the last time a bunch of fundamental Christians kidnaped 300 children to be sold as slaves while trying to form a Christian State within a sovereign Nation ?

[xerxes]

The Mormon breakaway sect led by Warren Jeffs.

[Freakinoldguy]

xerxes xerxes:

The Mormon breakaway sect led by Warren Jeffs.

And they were trying to establish through a force of arms a separate state in America?

They may have been a bunch of fucked up abusive fundamentalists but, the fact remains those children were their own, not kidnapped from another religious group and sold as slaves.

[andyt]

$1:

The real reason for the disproportionate amount of press coverage and outrage this time around, experts say, has to do with a combination of things: the Nigerian government's tepid response to the missing girls, the international media's initial indifference, and Nigerians becoming fed up with both.

"The initial assumption was that the girls would be rescued in a matter of days," Obasi says. But "this tragic situation dragged on, with the Nigerian government seemingly unable to find a solution." From the start, Nigerian security forces did not appear particularly motivated to find the girls, Mausi Segun, a researcher for Human Rights Watch based in northern Nigeria, told Mother Jones last week. She says the military was not making use of information provided by parents and locals in its rescue efforts. Meanwhile, the government of Nigerian President Goodluck Jonathan has formed no rescue operation, and falsely reported earlier on that some of the girls had been rescued. Jonathan waited 19 days to create a "fact-finding" committee. (Nigerian First Lady Patience Jonathan recently alleged that women protesting in Abuja against the government's weak response to the Chibok abductions had fabricated the kidnappings.)

Adding insult to injury, the international media largely ignored the massive abduction for the first week or so. In response, some Nigerians lashed out at the Western press for not covering the kidnapping of hundreds of black girls in the way that it likely would have covered the kidnapping of hundreds of white girls, and launched the Twitter hashtag #BringBackOurGirls. The campaign to rescue the girls spurred the belated outpouring of global press coverage on the abductions and on the origins and motivations of Boko Haram.

The barrage of media coverage likely prompted Secretary of State John Kerry on Tuesday to offer to send a team to Nigeria to help search for the girls. But press attention has adverse effects too. The kidnappings have been good PR for Boko Haram, and now the group is doing everything it can to pile onto the media frenzy. On Monday, the leader of Boko Haram, Abubakar Shekau, vowed in a homemade video to sell the girls off as slaves. And on Tuesday, suspected Boko Haram gunmen kidnapped another eight girls from a northeastern village.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... ention-now

[andyt]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

The topic was Boko Haram and their kidnapping of 300 female children as slaves not Eastern European slave traders, Christian slaves from the old testament or lucrative crimes involving human trafficking.

Hence my asking if the two perverts on the forum were an aberration or was this endemic of the religion and if you noticed I didn't ask what other religions, cultures, colours or countries practiced this crap.

What religion is practicing this crap. Do you call it practicing when a Russian mobster enslaves women? Some Chinese factory owner enslaves his workers? No. But in this case you want to say it's a Muslim practice. That is the bullshit here.

[andyt]

$1:

Whether it has links to jihadist groups outside Nigeria is disputed. According to one US military commander, Boko Haram is likely linked to Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM),[25][26] but others have found no evidence of material international support,[27] and attacks by the group on international targets have so far been limited.[12] On November 13, 2013 the United States government designated the group as a terrorist organisation.

In the wake of the 2009 crackdown on its members and its subsequent reemergence, the growing frequency and geographical range of attacks attributed to Boko Haram have led some political and religious leaders in the north to the conclusion that the group has now expanded beyond its original religious composition to include not only Islamic militants, but criminal elements and disgruntled politicians as well. For instance Borno State Governor Kashim Shettima said of Boko Haram: “[they have] become a franchise that anyone can buy into. It's something like a Bermuda Triangle.”[50] The group has also forcibly converted non-Muslims to Islam.[51]

they thus criticise Saudi Arabia for its usage of "Western" educational methods; prohibiting working in any governmental institution or civil service role; a contorted interpretation of the edicts of scholars from the classical tradition such as Ibn Taymiyyah to support their rebellions and use of violence; post-2009 a close relationship with al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb and further incorporation into the global Jihadi and Takfiri worldview. Boko Haram have thus been widely rejected and repudiated by many adherents of the Salafi tradition in Nigeria.[43]

Dr Mu’azu Babangida Aliyu, the Niger State governor, has criticized the group, saying, "Islam is known to be a religion of peace and does not accept violence and crime in any form" and that Boko Haram does not represent Islam.[52]
The Sultan of Sokoto Sa'adu Abubakar, a spiritual leader of Nigerian Muslims, has called the sect "anti-Islamic" and, as reported by the website AllAfrica.com, "an embarrassment to Islam".[53]
The Coalition of Muslim Clerics in Nigeria (CMCN) have called on the Boko Haram to disarm and embrace peace.[54]
The Islamic Circle of North America,[55] the Islamic Supreme Council of Canada,[56] the Muslim Council of Britain,[57] the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation[58] and the Council on American Islamic Relations[59] have all condemned the group. The American Muslim argues that Boko Haram should not be singled out as Nigerian Christians are just as violent.[60]

wiki

[andyt]

$1:

Human Rights Watch researcher Eric Guttschuss told IRIN News that Yusuf successfully attracted followers from unemployed youth "by speaking out against police and political corruption". Abdulkarim Mohammed, a researcher on Boko Haram, added that violent uprisings in Nigeria are ultimately due to "the fallout of frustration with corruption and the attendant social malaise of poverty and unemployment".[64] Chris Kwaja, a Nigerian university lecturer and researcher, asserts that “religious dimensions of the conflict have been misconstrued as the primary driver of violence when, in fact, disenfranchisement and inequality are the root causes”. Nigeria, he points out, has laws giving regional political leaders the power to qualify people as 'indigenes' (original inhabitants) or not. It determines whether citizens can participate in politics, own land, obtain a job, or attend school. The system is abused widely to ensure political support and to exclude others. Muslims have been denied indigene-ship certificates disproportionately often.[65] Nigerian opposition leader Buba Galadima says: "What is really a group engaged in class warfare is being portrayed in government propaganda as terrorists in order to win counter-terrorism assistance from the West."[66]

wiki

[Jabberwalker]

I'm sure glad that they have a valid reason for kidnapping hundreds of school girls for rape and servitude ... unhappy childhoods.

[andyt]

Nigeria schoolgirls could be traded for prisoners, report says

The Nigerian kidnappers holding some 200 schoolgirls want to trade them for some of their jailed comrades being held in the country, the British newspaper the Telegraph reports on its website, citing a mediator.

The Telegraph says Shehu Sani, who brokered face-to-face talks with Boko Haram, said he believes that a recent video in which a Boko Haram member says the girls will be sold as slaves proves they will be used as bargaining chips rather than killed.

"If you look at the fact that these girls have already been in captivity for some three weeks, then it is possible to detect a conciliatory tone in this statement from [the Boko member] — he is not saying he is going to kill the girls," the Telegraph quotes Sani as saying. He cited it as proof that the issue can be resolved.


Boko Haram has arisen "in a historically marginalized region of Nigeria," says Douek. "The Borno state is the poorest region in Nigeria, and receives the least government money."

Douek says many northerners also harbour resentments about the legacy of British rule and maintain a longstanding resistance to the Nigerian government.

In fact, many in Borno see the federal government, including the current presidency of Goodluck Jonathan, "as a kind of continuation of the colonial power that preceded it," Douek says.



all from cbc website

[BartSimpson]

xerxes xerxes:

The Mormon breakaway sect led by Warren Jeffs.

Mormons are not Christians. Mormons do not believe in God alone, they believe that THEY can become gods and that Mormons before them have become gods.

They are pantheists who are no more Christian than Andy is.

[stratos]

I could be off on this but sense the American Civil War no main line Christian religious group has used the Bible as justification of slavery. Eastern Europe/Russian gangs are not running around saying "The bible says it's okay" We don't hear about Chinese businesses using the writings of Mao to justify enslavement of their workers. Nor do we here India slave holders saying Buda said it was okay. What we do hear is these fringe Muslims groups clamoring about how Islamic Law makes what they do legal and part of their religious obligation. Thus they are using the Koran to justify their actions.

This is why many point to this and similar Muslims groups/gangs actions being a problem with the religious practice and belief of some Islamic groups. No one is saying that slavery is solely a Muslim issue.