[CanadianJeff]

Thanks for actually addressing something I have said on the topic for a change. For the record I also consider you a fairly intelligent person on most topics.

A change of tone doesn't excuse at least for me:

Murder and Genocide,
Incest and Rape,
Slavery,
Infanticide,
etc.

Even if Jesus was indeed the son of a god who commanded such things and spoke with a soft and loving tone his dad is still one hell of a giant dick.

As I've said earlier child services doesn't care how nice the mother in a home is if Dad beats his kids and throws them in the basement in chains when they choose to make their own choices regarding morality.

That's my stance and I don't apologize for speaking out against religion when it causes so much hate, violence and death in this world because people can't understand that the invisible and non existent look very much alike for a reason.

[Gunnair]

CanadianJeff CanadianJeff:

Well you got me there.

I think you get what I mean though. I guess in a way I'm like Curtman with weed or Bart with Muslims.

An extremist. Yeah, I think the board figured that one out a while ago. And as you see with your examples you've cited, there's nothing more popular in the forums than flogging one's personal agenda.

[CanadianJeff]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

CanadianJeff CanadianJeff:

I love how anytime I point out religion the arguments on the other side are actually so bad all you resort to is personal attacks. No one even wants to try addressing the idea that Jesus isn't being a total jerk throwing people into infinite torture for a finite lifetime.

Nope it's just easier to poison the well.

You call Jesus an asshole, and then complain that someone makes a eprsonal attack against you? Basically you deliberately offend people and then take offence when they are offended.

Point taken. Maybe the language I used was a tad strong. I apologize if the choice of words came off stronger then the message itself.

[Gunnair]

CanadianJeff CanadianJeff:

Thanks for actually addressing something I have said on the topic for a change. For the record I also consider you a fairly intelligent person on most topics.

A change of tone doesn't excuse at least for me:

Murder and Genocide,
Incest and Rape,
Slavery,
Infanticide,
etc.

Even if Jesus was indeed the son of a god who commanded such things and spoke with a soft and loving tone his dad is still one hell of a giant dick.

As I've said earlier child services doesn't care how nice the mother in a home is if Dad beats his kids and throws them in the basement in chains when they choose to make their own choices regarding morality.

That's my stance and I don't apologize for speaking out against religion when it causes so much hate, violence and death in this world because people can't understand that the invisible and non existent look very much alike for a reason.

Ironic. You are hardly preaching love and tolerance. Ahh the religion of evangelical atheism.

You are as bad as a Westboro Baptist here, Jeff, when it comes to your hate of religion and your need to spread the atheist evangelical gospel.

Pity you can't see that. Even more's the pity that you feel the compulsion to kick a religious person's feet out from under them by attacking their faith - often the source of their hope and joy.

I find it's probably one of the cruelest things a person can do to another - willfully take away their hope. Would you go to some mother who believes in God and heaven and attack her for it even after you found out she'd lost a child but had hope that she'd see that child again in heaven? Just to make you feel a little bit better about yourself?

It's a disgusting thing you do.

[Gunnair]

CanadianJeff CanadianJeff:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

CanadianJeff CanadianJeff:

I love how anytime I point out religion the arguments on the other side are actually so bad all you resort to is personal attacks. No one even wants to try addressing the idea that Jesus isn't being a total jerk throwing people into infinite torture for a finite lifetime.

Nope it's just easier to poison the well.

You call Jesus an asshole, and then complain that someone makes a eprsonal attack against you? Basically you deliberately offend people and then take offence when they are offended.

Point taken. Maybe the language I used was a tad strong. I apologize if the choice of words came off stronger then the message itself.

Nice. It's not like this is the first time you've been told of this.

[CanadianJeff]

Gunnair Gunnair:

CanadianJeff CanadianJeff:

Thanks for actually addressing something I have said on the topic for a change. For the record I also consider you a fairly intelligent person on most topics.

A change of tone doesn't excuse at least for me:

Murder and Genocide,
Incest and Rape,
Slavery,
Infanticide,
etc.

Even if Jesus was indeed the son of a god who commanded such things and spoke with a soft and loving tone his dad is still one hell of a giant dick.

As I've said earlier child services doesn't care how nice the mother in a home is if Dad beats his kids and throws them in the basement in chains when they choose to make their own choices regarding morality.

That's my stance and I don't apologize for speaking out against religion when it causes so much hate, violence and death in this world because people can't understand that the invisible and non existent look very much alike for a reason.

Ironic. You are hardly preaching love and tolerance. Ahh the religion of evangelical atheism.

You are as bad as a Westboro Baptist here, Jeff, when it comes to your hate of religion and your need to spread the atheist evangelical gospel.

Pity you can't see that. Even more's the pity that you feel the compulsion to kick a religious person's feet out from under them by attacking their faith - often the source of their hope and joy.

I find it's probably one of the cruelest things a person can do to another - willfully take away their hope. Would you go to some mother who believes in God and heaven and attack her for it even after you found out she'd lost a child but had hope that she'd see that child again in heaven? Just to make you feel a little bit better about yourself?

It's a disgusting thing you do.

Not a single word of that is even remotely true.

I'm NOT preaching anything. That's kind of the point.

[Gunnair]

Very true, Jeff. The denial is strong, however.

[ShepherdsDog]

Yet you're angry at something that you claim doesn't exist....nope you're not preaching....you're either nuts, or your real intent is to piss of those who do believe.

[CanadianJeff]

Fallacy of Dichotomy.

I already went over my reasons earlier. If a bunch of worshipers of Zeus who made up a large segment of the population started campaigning against the wearing of clothes because we should just embrace the way Zeus made us I think you would start to understand why there are so many non religious people who are so vocal.

Frankly Shep I know you get most of what I'm saying because I have seen you embrace and understand the need of a secular state. I just place that issue on a higher importance then you do.

[ShepherdsDog]

Naw....you're just expressing daddy issues in a sense. You lost your faith and you're angry about it. You feel abandoned. Secretly deep down you miss believing....and you want to take your anger and frustration out on those who still do.

Some grow out of faith, like kids do out of a belief in Santa, the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny..over time. You sound angry like something precious was stolen from you.


oh and finally. When you compare and contrast something, it's than not then, which is used to define time .

[CanadianJeff]

Grammar aside you can have strong feelings against something without actually being angry.

I seriously wish I could sit down with some of the people here and have coffee on this sometime so you could better understand my emotional state. Words simply don't have quite the same context.

[Gunnair]

CanadianJeff CanadianJeff:

Grammar aside you can have strong feelings against something without actually being angry.

I seriously wish I could sit down with some of the people here and have coffee on this sometime so you could better understand my emotional state. Words simply don't have quite the same context.

They may not, but one would think you'd gauge, from the general reaction you often get, that the words you are opting to use put up obstacles rather than tear down walls.

In other words, for a guy trying to spread a message, you're doing a pretty poor job of it.

[CanadianJeff]

Maybe your right. I'll take criticism when it's constructive.

[andyt]

Personally I think you're quite rigth to rail against the Christian bigots who think everybody who doesn't believe as they do goes to hell. Same with bigots of other religions who spout similar crap. Thing is, there are many perfectly decent people who believe that their religion is only one way to God, they don't try to push it on others or believe that people with other beliefs are all evil in some way. And your broad brush tars all of them as well. If a belief in Jesus is what makes somebody act like a decent human to all other humans, even those who don't, then hallelujah, sing the praises of Jesus. The religious bigots are not going to listen to your rants anyway.

[Curtman]

Gay teen holds the line for Manitoba bullying bill

$1:

This was never meant to become a battle, and Evan Wiens didn’t expect to find himself in the thick of it. Instead, it all began as routine: Manitoba’s government, spurred by the high-profile suicide of B.C. teen Amanda Todd, tabled a bill that would beef up its bullying laws.

Worded as a largely boilerplate protection of “a safe and inclusive learning environment,” Bill 18 drew little attention at first. But it has become a flashpoint. Opponents say the bill threatens religious freedom by broadly defining bullying and protecting gay-straight alliances (GSAs) but not mentioning faith groups.

The backlash is most acute in Steinbach, a small city of about 13,500 people southeast of Winnipeg. It’s there that the local MP – cabinet minister Vic Toews – has joined the local MLA and religious leaders in speaking out against Bill 18.

And it’s Evan’s home.

The 16-year-old is trying to start a GSA at the public Steinbach Regional Secondary School, where he’s the only student who has come out as gay. He’s become the face of Bill 18 in the city where it’s most strongly opposed. And it’s not easy.

During Evan’s interviews, with cameras rolling, other students shout slurs at him. He shrugs it off as best he can, saying he’s fighting for those who feel they can’t speak out.

“They should not have to feel ashamed, and they should not have to feel like they have to hide themselves,” said the 16-year-old, who was shy, at first, about his fight. “But then I thought about it, and I thought if a church is allowed to vocally oppose a bill, what’s so bad about me standing up for my rights?”

He has many opponents. In a sermon last month, Steinbach pastor Ray Duerksen of the prominent Southland Church called Bill 18 “the biggest challenge the Canadian church has ever faced.” He opposes bullying of any child, but argues the bill protects gay kids more than religious ones.

“It’s going to be the beginning of an incremental attempt to destroy the Christian church. That’s what’s taking place. That’s the agenda behind the scene,” he said in the sermon, likening same-sex intercourse to adultery, bestiality and pedophilia. A local Christian high school held an information and prayer session on Bill 18 later that night.

Mr. Toews, a lawyer, said in a recent letter to constituents he believes Bill 18 represents an “unconstitutional infringement upon the freedom of religion.” Through staff, he declined an interview.

Specifically, critics say the bill defines bullying very loosely and offers no clear punishments in the guidelines. “The issue we have here is how do we get a bill that protects all kids?” said Kelvin Goertzen, the local Progressive Conservative MLA. Bill 18 has “gotten more attention than any bill I can remember,” he said.

The bill allows schools to respond to bullying that takes place after-hours, including text messages and social media, while GSAs – clubs for all kids who support lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered rights – would be specifically permitted.

“The sad reality is homophobic discrimination is still an accepted form of discrimination in some circles. And Bill 18 is the best way to support some of our students,” Education Minister Nancy Allan said, adding: “This is about safe schools, young people reaching their potential.” She spoke to Evan earlier this month, congratulating him. “He is just remarkable,” she said.

Manitoba’s education system is the latest in Canada to find itself weighing religious and gay rights. GSAs saw the Toronto Catholic District School Board square off with the Ontario government. A Catholic high school in Whitehorse was under fire this month for saying homosexuality is immoral. Alberta passed a law four years ago allowing parents to pull children from any class in which sexual orientation would be discussed.

Randy Dueck, the superintendent overseeing Evan’s school, said current policy already allows for GSAs, and Bill 18 wouldn’t change that. But Evan said current rules ban him from putting up any posters as church groups do.“They already have all the freedoms. I’m just trying to put up a poster,” he said.

He laughs when asked about the big names opposing him, saying it’s empowering. “People never expect a youth to challenge the government, or challenge what your local MLA’s stance is on something,” he said. He has a simple message for bullied teens.

“I’ve gone through a lot of hard times, but I’ve grown as a person. I want them to know that it’s not a bad thing to be yourself, and you don’t have to be ashamed to walk down the hallway and say, ‘Hey, this is who I am.’ ”