[Newsbot]

Title: State multiculturalism has failed, says David Cameron
Category: Political
Posted By: Scape
Date: 2011-02-05 06:05:55

[GreenTiger]

Bravo.

[EyeBrock]

David Cameron has a degree in stating the bloody obvious. About time somebody said it though.

[ShepherdsDog]

Well now that the obvious is out of the bag, what do you do about the undesirable(those who refuse to fit in) non Briton citizens of the UK?

[EyeBrock]

That is the issue that the scaredy cat Brits won't deal with. The mainstream are still stuck in the quagmire of one-way tolerance. As in we are tolerant and the immigrants 'aint.

Real action is now being left in the hands of the right wing extremists. It's 1923 Berlin.

[Gunnair]

It's not just scaredy cat Brits, maybe scaredy cat westerners is more fitting.

[EyeBrock]

Maybe, but in Canada at least, there hasn't been the same growth of a racist right-wing movement in response to the cult of multicult and the like as there is in the UK.

[ShepherdsDog]

Not really a good comparison, using 1923 Berlin., the Jews did everything they could to fit into German society. Even those who converted to Christianity in previous generations were to be exterminated. A lot of the Jews were extremely secular and liberal in their views. This contrasts with those elements disrupting British society. They are religious fanatics who have an agenda that includes the conversion or destruction of Western values to a twisted Islamic one.

[CommanderSock]

Brock is right, integration is a two way street.

However, I think there's still too much confusion about multiculturalism, multi-ethnicism and multi-religious(ism lol) and leaving the issue with the angry mobs will simply generate more problems.

The Europeans are no strangers to multiculturalism (Romans vs barbarian Nordics, celtvs vs goths, Franks vs Gauls etc), they are no strangers to multi-religiousness either (Jews come to mind), however I'd say the Europeans are having trouble with the racial element (in the modern social context of course, we know 'race' doesn't actually exist).

This is why, painting the whole issue with a broad stroke and saying "multiculturalism has failed" is a bit naive. Integration is a two way street, and so is tolerance.

Not all tolerate equally. In my experience, I find middle easterners, north africans and south east asians least tolerant (not exclusive to muslims mind you), while Sub Saharan Africans, West Europeans, North Europeans and Pacific Asians far more tolerant (this is just opinion, I have no data to back this up).

The question really becomes, how do we deal with the combination of all three factors of religion, culture, and race (in the social context). Mind you, this is quintessentially a world issue, it affects every part of the globe, whether it's Chinese immigrants settling in tropical Africa, or Middle Easterners settling in Europe.

If multiculturalism was a failure, America would've been in a perpetual state of war as they have many cultures. It's really a question of acceptance, from both sides.

[CommanderSock]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Maybe, but in Canada at least, there hasn't been the same growth of a racist right-wing movement in response to the cult of multicult and the like as there is in the UK.

I think this may be partially due to the fact that Canada may have hit critical mass with its immigrant population while the UK still has not (contrary to popular belief Canada is far more diverse than the UK).

Economics and opportunity are the another factors, Canada is still more of a meritocracy than Britain, which is still fundamentally a classist society. Read the recent McLeans article with grievances of how Asians are outdoing Canadian (i.e white) students. In Europe, this would raise serious political consequences and questions, in Canada our history and politics has taught us that hard work trumps privilege and entitlement. Many traditional Canadians are likely to blame themselves for failure (or at least society will blame them), while in Europe outside forces will be blamed, i.e. the Chinese are stealing your school spots, the gypsies are stealing your goods, the Poles are taking your welfare, and so on and so forth.

My 2c.

[EyeBrock]

CommanderSock CommanderSock:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Maybe, but in Canada at least, there hasn't been the same growth of a racist right-wing movement in response to the cult of multicult and the like as there is in the UK.

I think this may be partially due to the fact that Canada may have hit critical mass with its immigrant population while the UK still has not (contrary to popular belief Canada is far more diverse than the UK).

Economics and opportunity are the another factors, Canada is still more of a meritocracy than Britain, which is still fundamentally a classist society. Read the recent McLeans article with grievances of how Asians are outdoing Canadian (i.e white) students. In Europe, this would raise serious political consequences and questions, in Canada our history and politics has taught us that hard work trumps privilege and entitlement. Many traditional Canadians are likely to blame themselves for failure (or at least society will blame them), while in Europe outside forces will be blamed, i.e. the Chinese are stealing your school spots, the gypsies are stealing your goods, the Poles are taking your welfare, and so on and so forth.

My 2c.

I agree Sock.

Shep, my comparison to 1923 was more aimed at the rise of the ultra right-wing in England. I agree that the Jews in Europe made far more meaningful attempts at integration than say Pakistani/Bangladeshi immigrants in the UK.

Basically the UK has encouraged immigrants to take the piss out of their culture. There are so many things wrong over there that it would take a Khar like posting to address a small amount of them.

[CommanderSock]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

I agree Sock.

Shep, my comparison to 1923 was more aimed at the rise of the ultra right-wing in England. I agree that the Jews in Europe made far more meaningful attempts at integration than say Pakistani/Bangladeshi immigrants in the UK.

Basically the UK has encouraged immigrants to take the piss out of their culture. There are so many things wrong over there that it would take a Khar like posting to address a small amount of them.

I agree at the first part, however I don't think Britain has encouraged them to flaunt their values, it is who they are, Bangladeshis/Indians/Pakistanis/Other Muslims are generally that way, no matter where they go. They impose their value system and beliefs because in their part of the world, it's the survival mechanism they developed through thousands of years of cultural overlap. India is the most diverse country in the world, it has not maintained such a powerful system of segregation (the caste system) for over 3000 years without there being deep racial, religious, and cultural norms developed to deal with its diversity. A dalit's a dalit!

Honor killings aren't a Muslim problem, Honor killings are common from cultures that originate from the Mughal Empire (India/Pakistan/Bangladesh/Sri Lanka/Nepal and parts of Afghanistan).

When was the last time (going back 100 years) we've heard a white woman murdered by her parents for marrying a black man? Thrown out, sure, ostracized sure, but murdered? Yet we hear of constant killings in Toronto between say 2 Indians from different caste systems. Sikhs in Vancouver and honor killings have become almost synonymous in media coverage.

Religion plays a part, race plays a part, history plays a part, and the host society plays a part. Nigerians in the USA are highest immigrant achievers in terms of income and education (higher than Chinese Americans), yet Caribbeans and Somalis are the lowest (as per Wiki). Evidently, race and culture hasn't harmed the Nigerians's success prospects. Yet, it's not helped the Somalis and Caribbeans? Why? (not a rhetorical question I really don't know the answer).

So, such a difficult thing to pinpoint and solve. Otherwise, I'm sure someone would become a millionaire with the solution by now.

Multi-culturalism is complex. David Cameron is out of his league.

[EyeBrock]

Again, we are on the same page. Unfortunately a large majority of immigrants to the UK are muslims from Pakistan, Bangladesh and India.

[Brenda]

Angela Merkel said the same.

I think they both deserve the "No shit, Sherlock"-award.

[andyt]

CommanderSock CommanderSock:

I think this may be partially due to the fact that Canada may have hit critical mass with its immigrant population while the UK still has not (contrary to popular belief Canada is far more diverse than the UK).

Economics and opportunity are the another factors, Canada is still more of a meritocracy than Britain, which is still fundamentally a classist society. Read the recent McLeans article with grievances of how Asians are outdoing Canadian (i.e white) students. In Europe, this would raise serious political consequences and questions, in Canada our history and politics has taught us that hard work trumps privilege and entitlement. Many traditional Canadians are likely to blame themselves for failure (or at least society will blame them), while in Europe outside forces will be blamed, i.e. the Chinese are stealing your school spots, the gypsies are stealing your goods, the Poles are taking your welfare, and so on and so forth.

My 2c.

I gotta disagree with the first paragraph, Sock. Yes, Podunkville is still mostly white, but the big cities have certainly hit critical mass and then some. When you can get people advocating making Chinese and Punjabi official languages with a straight face, you know that's true.

The second paragraph, I agree with you about Britain. Uniquely among Western European nations, Britain has created a huge, stable underclass of white people who are going to be resentful of foreigners coming in and taking what few opportunities they have. This is almost totally unknown in France, Germany, Scandinavia, tho they now seem bent on creating an underclass of brown people. Still nothing like the numbers in Britain tho.

Also, we've had way less Muslim immigration, and those seem to be the bad boys of integration. Much as I bitch about immigrants, let the kids of Chinese and Punjabis (or now Philipinos) go to school here and they mostly fit in quite well.

But the number one reason that Canada hasn't a strong anti-immigrant movement is.....we're a bunch of sheep, deathly afraid of not being pc and easily cowed by accusations of racism. We all want to be nice all the time. Too bad we're not more like the Aussies, who aren't afraid to speak up. We'll keep patting ourselves on the back about how nice and tolerant we are while we keep importing way more people than we need, and seem to import all sorts of scumbags along with it. I hope something comes out of this US/Canada border integration, because we'll be pushed to be far more stringent in our immigration and refugee policies. That would be a good thing. Of course the opposition parties will scream bloody murder about it to get immigrant votes, and Harper may balk too because he's also courting those votes.