[Newsbot]

Title: Government eyes biofuels as replacement for diesel in naval ships
Category: Military
Posted By: Hyack
Date: 2013-01-14 14:01:51
Canadian

[Canadian_Mind]

I'd be concerned more about performance degredation than costs...

[BartSimpson]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

I'd be concerned more about performance degredation than costs...

Irrelevant. Don't you know that the CF is a social engineering experiment and not a functional military? What are you? One of those Neanderthals who thinks a military should focus on their mission over their social agenda?

[QBall]

Nice idea but there's no way the cost can be justified. Until biofuels are produced on a massive scale the cost to the consumer will never reach conventional bunker oil's cost. The problem is those economies of scale for biofuel will never be achieved until consumer demand incerases. Catch-22 you are a cold, heartless bitch. On another topic I thought any engine that can diesel oil can run biodiesel with no modifications. I understand the turbine engines might need modification but I would think the PDEs should be to run straight biodiesel.

[Canadian_Mind]

QBall QBall:

Nice idea but there's no way the cost can be justified. Until biofuels are produced on a massive scale the cost to the consumer will never reach conventional bunker oil's cost. The problem is those economies of scale for biofuel will never be achieved until consumer demand incerases. Catch-22 you are a cold, heartless bitch. On another topic I thought any engine that can diesel oil can run biodiesel with no modifications. I understand the turbine engines might need modification but I would think the PDEs should be to run straight biodiesel.

I drive a ford. I can tell you that is a big no-no. If it was an old 7.3L you could run the motor off pretty much anything assuming it'd go through the fuel filter and the injectors could make it aerosolize (diesel, bio-diesel, jet fuel, kerosine, vodka, vegetable oil, urine, etc). But 6.0 and up? No dice. Even the 6.7, which is supposed to be B20 compatible, is already running into issues. It's not that the motor can't function, it's just that biofuels produce chemical compounds before, during, and after the combustion cycle that normal diesel doesn't. Some of these compounds eat away at the material these newer engines are made out of.

[bootlegga]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

I'd be concerned more about performance degredation than costs...

Irrelevant. Don't you know that the CF is a social engineering experiment and not a functional military? What are you? One of those Neanderthals who thinks a military should focus on their mission over their social agenda?

Yeah, it's not like the US military isn't already doing the same thing...

http://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/ ... fuels.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/toddwoody/2 ... -startups/

[Caelon]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

QBall QBall:

Nice idea but there's no way the cost can be justified. Until biofuels are produced on a massive scale the cost to the consumer will never reach conventional bunker oil's cost. The problem is those economies of scale for biofuel will never be achieved until consumer demand incerases. Catch-22 you are a cold, heartless bitch. On another topic I thought any engine that can diesel oil can run biodiesel with no modifications. I understand the turbine engines might need modification but I would think the PDEs should be to run straight biodiesel.

I drive a ford. I can tell you that is a big no-no. If it was an old 7.3L you could run the motor off pretty much anything assuming it'd go through the fuel filter and the injectors could make it aerosolize (diesel, bio-diesel, jet fuel, kerosine, vodka, vegetable oil, urine, etc). But 6.0 and up? No dice. Even the 6.7, which is supposed to be B20 compatible, is already running into issues. It's not that the motor can't function, it's just that biofuels produce chemical compounds before, during, and after the combustion cycle that normal diesel doesn't. Some of these compounds eat away at the material these newer engines are made out of.

There are more issues than that. The big one is B20 is only a viable fuel at warmer temperatures. Get close to freezing and a B5 is less likely to plug filters and injectors. At -30 no bio diesel is acceptable. If you run a bio product of even B2 at colder temperatures you should expect to be sitting on the side of the road with lots of fuel and a dead engine. If the engine is not running then there is no heat in the cab. Bio fuel is not a single source product nor is the chemical makeup consistent from one batch to the next. That means when you formulate diesel for specific conditions the blended fuel must be adjusted every single batch. This add tothe cost of procution as you quite often have to use more expensive low pour point conventional diesel to blend up a fuel that will not leave a vehicle disabled.

The biggest issue of all is why should you be taking land that could be used for food production and turn it into fuel production. The total cost of cultivation, seeding, harvest and extraction exceeds the cost of conventional diesel. Prime agricultural land is a decreasing resource and should be maintained for food production.

[Gunnair]

bootlegga bootlegga:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

I'd be concerned more about performance degredation than costs...

Irrelevant. Don't you know that the CF is a social engineering experiment and not a functional military? What are you? One of those Neanderthals who thinks a military should focus on their mission over their social agenda?

Yeah, it's not like the US military isn't already doing the same thing...

http://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/ ... fuels.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/toddwoody/2 ... -startups/

Oops...

[Vamp018]

bootlegga bootlegga:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

I'd be concerned more about performance degredation than costs...

Irrelevant. Don't you know that the CF is a social engineering experiment and not a functional military? What are you? One of those Neanderthals who thinks a military should focus on their mission over their social agenda?

Yeah, it's not like the US military isn't already doing the same thing...

http://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/ ... fuels.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/toddwoody/2 ... -startups/

Bingo, Excellent catch. My helo in the USCG is a MH65C, runs on bio-fuel or shall I say McRoach grease from the fries lol. Most USCG/USN ships run on Bio or a 50/50. Cost better then say nuclear powered and it does save money over diesel powered. However availability and manufacturing and maintenance cost are high. they should have waited till those cost caught up with the Diesel cost.

[QBall]

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

I drive a ford. I can tell you that is a big no-no. If it was an old 7.3L you could run the motor off pretty much anything assuming it'd go through the fuel filter and the injectors could make it aerosolize (diesel, bio-diesel, jet fuel, kerosine, vodka, vegetable oil, urine, etc). But 6.0 and up? No dice. Even the 6.7, which is supposed to be B20 compatible, is already running into issues. It's not that the motor can't function, it's just that biofuels produce chemical compounds before, during, and after the combustion cycle that normal diesel doesn't. Some of these compounds eat away at the material these newer engines are made out of.

Ah I see . That's too bad. The CPFs always stank of diesel. I think a ship that smelled like french fries could be a morale boost.

[desertdude]

bootlegga bootlegga:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

I'd be concerned more about performance degredation than costs...

Irrelevant. Don't you know that the CF is a social engineering experiment and not a functional military? What are you? One of those Neanderthals who thinks a military should focus on their mission over their social agenda?

Yeah, it's not like the US military isn't already doing the same thing...

http://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/ ... fuels.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/toddwoody/2 ... -startups/

OooOoo...caught with the pants down.....AGAIN !

[kilroy]

So if naval personell end up eating a lot of deep fried food is there a special wage supplement for hazardous duty?

I have been wondering how far we could go with biofuels, would farm tractors be able to use home brew as we slide down the long and slippery slope of the downside of the oil peak in order to maintain food production?

Caelon said, "The biggest issue of all is why should you be taking land that could be used for food production and turn it into fuel production. The total cost of cultivation, seeding, harvest and extraction exceeds the cost of conventional diesel. Prime agricultural land is a decreasing resource and should be maintained for food production."

and I think I understand what you are saying, but biofuels wouldn't necessarily come from prime land. And it shouldn't. Fuel from biological sources is more expensive than diesel now, and the other argument is that it is more expensive than you get out of it, ie it takes more energy to produce than it produces.

On the other hand we have seen that military priorities and procurements have a way of lowering the cost of their inputs, short of subs and planes anyway, for the general public. Maybe, if we work at it, having the navy get into a program like this could encourage a better production system.

[martin14]

QBall QBall:

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

I drive a ford. I can tell you that is a big no-no. If it was an old 7.3L you could run the motor off pretty much anything assuming it'd go through the fuel filter and the injectors could make it aerosolize (diesel, bio-diesel, jet fuel, kerosine, vodka, vegetable oil, urine, etc). But 6.0 and up? No dice. Even the 6.7, which is supposed to be B20 compatible, is already running into issues. It's not that the motor can't function, it's just that biofuels produce chemical compounds before, during, and after the combustion cycle that normal diesel doesn't. Some of these compounds eat away at the material these newer engines are made out of.

Ah I see . That's too bad. The CPFs always stank of diesel. I think a ship that smelled like french fries could be a morale boost.

Or fried fish.

[BartSimpson]

bootlegga bootlegga:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Canadian_Mind Canadian_Mind:

I'd be concerned more about performance degredation than costs...

Irrelevant. Don't you know that the CF is a social engineering experiment and not a functional military? What are you? One of those Neanderthals who thinks a military should focus on their mission over their social agenda?

Yeah, it's not like the US military isn't already doing the same thing...

http://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/ ... fuels.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/toddwoody/2 ... -startups/

As I said, the military is being transformed into a g*ddamn social experiment instead of focusing on its primary mission.