[Newsbot]

Title: DND knew Cyclones might not measure up, red-flagged troubles in 2004: documents
Category: Military
Posted By: QBall
Date: 2013-11-04 11:25:00
Canadian

[Jabberwalker]

Back to the feckin' Liberals, again. They must really like helicopter crashes.

[saturn_656]

The only ready choice was the AW101, but the Liberals couldn't buy it without embarrassing Emperor Chrétien. To do so would have proven the Emperor to have been in error, we couldn't have that.

[bootlegga]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

The only ready choice was the AW101, but the Liberals couldn't buy it without embarrassing Emperor Chrétien. To do so would have proven the Emperor to have been in error, we couldn't have that.

Or perhaps they weren't as good as Augusta thought they were;

$1:

Alan Williams, the senior defence bureaucrat in charge of the Cyclone purchase at the time, said AgustaWestland's bid was "non-compliant" and dismissed as nonsense any suggestion that the political fix was in for Sikorsky.

"They blew it. They were clearly non-compliant and they know it," Williams said in an interview with The Canadian Press. "They didn't do a good enough job."

Williams' comment was met with a firm denial by AgustaWestland, which said in a statement late Sunday that "at no point did the Government of Canada declare that the AW101 was non-compliant."

"The aircraft met all of the performance and equipment requirements of the original Request for Proposals, then and now, and Mr. Williams knows this," the statement said.

What exactly the company did wrong, Williams was not prepared to say, but he insisted the Liberal government of the day never exerted pressure on him to favour one bid over another.

Personally, I doubt that it would have given Chretien all that much of a black eye - we had already ordered them for the Coast Guard and that wasn't all that bad. Sure, it created a bit of a ruckus, but it was hardly the end of the world.

Chretien's reasoning for cancelling the EH-101s was that we couldn't afford them at the time, while in 2004, we certainly could have with all those huge surpluses. All AW had to do was meet the requirements of the RFP, but according to the project head, they didn't.

Williams never said what the deficiencies were, but I bet it probably had something to do with a lack of domestic partners and/or suppliers, given that they were already in production in Europe.

Just look at any deal we've signed in the past couple decades - there was always some sort of domestic partner or supplier. There is no way any Canadian government is going to hand out billions of dollars to a company and not expect that some of it get spent here, creating jobs and strengthening industry.

Having said all that, this program is the biggest cock-up the government has had in a long, long time.

[Jabberwalker]

$1:

Personally, I doubt that it would have given Chretien all that much of a black eye - we had already ordered them for the Coast Guard and that wasn't all that bad.

Chretien couldn't have given a hoot in Hades if the Navy ever had helicopters, ever again. As was pointed out after he was gone, Chretien never once even visited DND headquarters during the entire time that he was Prime Minister. If you know Ottawa at all, you would know that DND headquarters are a five minute WALK from the Langevin block where the PMO resides.

Chretien was the 18th born of 19 children(!). Even though only 10 of them survived, they were almost all older than him and some or maybe a lot of them were boys. I wonder, how many Chretien boys served in the forces during wartime? Did any of them? He never mentioned that any of them did. Perhaps, they were hiding in the woods near Shawinigan from being registered by the Mounties? Between him and Trudeau (who left the country during wartime, lest he had to serve) our defense decisions for 3 + decades were made by men who despised the forces and those who served in them.

I wonder how they had the gall to place those wreaths at the Cenotaph, year, after year? I wonder what they murmured under their breath when they did it?

[saturn_656]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Or perhaps they weren't as good as Augusta thought they were

They were better than the vapourware "militarized S-92", which didn't even exist.

Sikorsky won the contest with a helicopter that only existed on paper, that's why we are in the mess were are now.

$1:

Chretien's reasoning for cancelling the EH-101s was that we couldn't afford them at the time, while in 2004, we certainly could have with all those huge surpluses. All AW had to do was meet the requirements of the RFP, but according to the project head, they didn't.

AW disputes that. Given the all the BS surrounding the Liberal government and maritime helicopters. I'm open to the idea that the story AW is telling is factual.

$1:

Just look at any deal we've signed in the past couple decades - there was always some sort of domestic partner or supplier. There is no way any Canadian government is going to hand out billions of dollars to a company and not expect that some of it get spent here, creating jobs and strengthening industry.

AW had a "domestic" partner in the form of Boeing Canada. Now I know Boeing is about as Canadian as Budweiser Beer, but EDIT: General Dynamics Canada (Sikorsky's "Canadian" partner on the Cyclone) isn't any better.

Supposedly Sikorsky beat AW and Boeing Canada on price... they promised their paper helicopter would be cheaper than AW's real one.

Load of crap eh?

[bootlegga]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

$1:

Personally, I doubt that it would have given Chretien all that much of a black eye - we had already ordered them for the Coast Guard and that wasn't all that bad.

Chretien couldn't have given a hoot in Hades if the Navy ever had helicopters, ever again. As was pointed out after he was gone, Chretien never once even visited DND headquarters during the entire time that he was Prime Minister. If you know Ottawa at all, you would know that DND headquarters are a five minute WALK from the Langevin block where the PMO resides.

Chretien was the 18th born of 19 children(!). Even though only 10 of them survived, they were almost all older than him and some or maybe a lot of them were boys. I wonder, how many Chretien boys served in the forces during wartime? Did any of them? He never mentioned that any of them did. Perhaps, they were hiding in the woods near Shawinigan from being registered by the Mounties? Between him and Trudeau (who left the country during wartime, lest he had to serve) our defense decisions for 3 + decades were made by men who despised the forces and those who served in them.

I wonder how they had the gall to place those wreaths at the Cenotaph, year, after year? I wonder what they murmured under their breath when they did it?

It's entirely irrelevant whether or not any of the other Chretiens ever served - they weren't PM.

And who cares that he never visited DNDHQ - that's what the Minister of Defence is for. Anyways, I bet there is more than one department Chretien never visited while in office. The PM is the head of the government and people should be coming to him, not the other way around.

I agree that Chretien disliked the military, but that was more than mutual.

After they let him ride around with his helmet on backwards and he was humiliated by the press, they should probably be thankful that he earmarked any money for them. You can't expect to humiliate someone like that and then turn around and ask for $15 billion. Life doesn't work that way...

Of course two wrongs don't make a right, but someone at DND should have kept a closer eye on things that day.

[bootlegga]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

bootlegga bootlegga:

Or perhaps they weren't as good as Augusta thought they were

They were better than the vapourware "militarized S-92", which didn't even exist.

Sikorsky won the contest with a helicopter that only existed on paper, that's why we are in the mess were are now.

Which was fully acknowledged - the documents show that Williams pressed them to make sure it was possible before he recommended the S-92.

saturn_656 saturn_656:

$1:

Chretien's reasoning for cancelling the EH-101s was that we couldn't afford them at the time, while in 2004, we certainly could have with all those huge surpluses. All AW had to do was meet the requirements of the RFP, but according to the project head, they didn't.

AW disputes that. Given the all the BS surrounding the Liberal government and maritime helicopters. I'm open to the idea that the story AW is telling is factual.

That may or may not be true. As the old saying goes, there are three sides to every argument, my side, your side and the truth.

saturn_656 saturn_656:

$1:

Just look at any deal we've signed in the past couple decades - there was always some sort of domestic partner or supplier. There is no way any Canadian government is going to hand out billions of dollars to a company and not expect that some of it get spent here, creating jobs and strengthening industry.

AW had a "domestic" partner in the form of Boeing Canada. Now I know Boeing is about as Canadian as Budweiser Beer, but EDIT: General Dynamics Canada (Sikorsky's "Canadian" partner on the Cyclone) isn't any better.

Supposedly Sikorsky beat AW and Boeing Canada on price... they promised their paper helicopter would be cheaper than AW's real one.

Load of crap eh?

Yep, that was why we ordered them - price, which obviously isn't correct.

Let's hope the Conservatives pull the trigger and cancel this mess and buy the NH-90 or AW-101 - even if it means waiting even longer and costing more. Either one would be better instead of waiting another decade for the S-92.

[PluggyRug]

We should buy lots of these