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shockedcanadian
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Posts: 3164
Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:38 am
Happened a year later than it should have. Interested to see how much of his contract they had to eat
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shockedcanadian
CKA Elite
Posts: 3164
Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:47 am
Wow, Phaneuf and his contract gone without Leafs responsible for any of it. Great job. Frees up the money for Stamkos in off season...
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OnTheIce 
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Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:55 am
shockedcanadian shockedcanadian: Wow, Phaneuf and his contract gone without Leafs responsible for any of it. Great job. Frees up the money for Stamkos in off season... Leafs still had to take back some bad money contracts. Overall, a good position for Toronto and Ottawa has a solid top 4 defence core now.
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Lemmy
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Posts: 12349
Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 11:11 am
shockedcanadian shockedcanadian: Wow, Phaneuf and his contract gone without Leafs responsible for any of it. Great job. Frees up the money for Stamkos in off season... Sorry, why would you add a player like Stamkos to a team 4 or 5 years away from needing a player like Stamkos? Adding quick-fixes, like Stamkos, before the team had need for them is exactly the reason why the Leafs have sucked ass for 50 years.
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OnTheIce 
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Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 11:20 am
Lemmy Lemmy: shockedcanadian shockedcanadian: Wow, Phaneuf and his contract gone without Leafs responsible for any of it. Great job. Frees up the money for Stamkos in off season... Sorry, why would you add a player like Stamkos to a team 4 or 5 years away from needing a player like Stamkos? Adding quick-fixes, like Stamkos, before the team had need for them is exactly the reason why the Leafs have sucked ass for 50 years. Stamkos is 26. Get him on a long-term deal for 8+ years and you have him to help build the team. You'll get him in his peak-performing age right around the 29-30 year mark, just in time to have all the other pieces ready. Like Babcock, Stamkos will be a piece of the puzzle. Not a quick fix.
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Lemmy
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Posts: 12349
Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 11:49 am
OnTheIce OnTheIce: Stamkos is 26.
Get him on a long-term deal for 8+ years and you have him to help build the team. You'll get him in his peak-performing age right around the 29-30 year mark, just in time to have all the other pieces ready.
Like Babcock, Stamkos will be a piece of the puzzle. Not a quick fix. Stamkos is 26 but he's got a lot of miles on him already. This anxiousness for a quick-fix is the same mistake the Leafs make time and time again. The Leafs need to lose and continue losing for at least 4 years. They need to be the Nordiques. Why put a star player on a team that management wants to lose hockey games? Doesn't make sense. If you want a 32 year-old Stamkos 6 years from now, trade for him in 6 years. Stamkos isn't the answer to the Leafs problems. The answer is/are 15, 16 and 17 year old kids who's names nobody knows yet. The Leafs need the next Stamkos, not this one.
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shockedcanadian
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Posts: 3164
Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:20 pm
Lemmy Lemmy: OnTheIce OnTheIce: Stamkos is 26.
Get him on a long-term deal for 8+ years and you have him to help build the team. You'll get him in his peak-performing age right around the 29-30 year mark, just in time to have all the other pieces ready.
Like Babcock, Stamkos will be a piece of the puzzle. Not a quick fix. Stamkos is 26 but he's got a lot of miles on him already. This anxiousness for a quick-fix is the same mistake the Leafs make time and time again. The Leafs need to lose and continue losing for at least 4 years. They need to be the Nordiques. Why put a star player on a team that management wants to lose hockey games? Doesn't make sense. If you want a 32 year-old Stamkos 6 years from now, trade for him in 6 years. Stamkos isn't the answer to the Leafs problems. The answer is/are 15, 16 and 17 year old kids who's names nobody knows yet. The Leafs need the next Stamkos, not this one. Yes, but Leafs will need a strong captain and leader, at 26, with his resume already and his desire to win, he can be that guy, you are still going to need a so-called veteran star, which he would be when they are able to compete. Look at what Jagr is doing at age 43, if a guy keeps himself in shape he can still be a 40 goal scorer in his mid 30's. With Stamkos working with Gary Roberts and having those off ice habits, he could be a Jagr. You simply can't avoid considering a player such as Stamkos if he is available, at his age, and his work ethic/skill set. Philosophically I do agree with you, that tanking year after year is the solution. However, look at Edmonton. Still horrific after so many years of failing. This is why they brought in Hunter, they want to ID great talent of all types, not just the cant miss that every team knows about. Steve Yzerman is the prime example as he was drafted very late. In a dream situation, get Stamkos and get hometown kid McDavid when his three years in purgatory are over in Oil land and he decides to walk. Yes, simply throwing out the ideal and assuming no player interference run by the Leafs . If I gave you this scenario though; as far fetched as it stands, how much quicker does this rebuild become? Is that a valid manner in which to build a Cup winner? You can still draft young and high for the next few years, you can still cap out every year because you are the Leafs. I think MLSE is surprised by the Leafs TV ratings, if I recall correctly they were worse than anticipated. If you take stock, they have Reilly, Nylander, Patrick or Vilardi in 2017 as they need a top flight centre. Not a bad young nucleus. One final note, Stamkos inherits the Captaincy, for a guy who wants to play here and now has an open C to wear, this is a reasonable option.
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OnTheIce 
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Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:36 pm
Lemmy Lemmy: Stamkos is 26 but he's got a lot of miles on him already. This anxiousness for a quick-fix is the same mistake the Leafs make time and time again. The Leafs need to lose and continue losing for at least 4 years. They need to be the Nordiques. Why put a star player on a team that management wants to lose hockey games? Doesn't make sense. If you want a 32 year-old Stamkos 6 years from now, trade for him in 6 years.
Stamkos isn't the answer to the Leafs problems. The answer is/are 15, 16 and 17 year old kids who's names nobody knows yet. The Leafs need the next Stamkos, not this one. No one player is the answer to the Leafs problems. Stamkos isn't a quick fix. He's a piece of the puzzle. Just as the new coach and new management team. Babcock was brought in to change the culture and to attract top talent to the organization, top talent like Stamkos. You need a mix of young talent, veteran talent and leadership. You won't win with a team of young kids hoping they all work out. Ask Edmonton.
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Lemmy
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Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:43 pm
shockedcanadian shockedcanadian: Steve Yzerman is the prime example as he was drafted very late. Uhhh, no. Yzerman went 4th overall and made a generation of Peterborough hockey fans swap our Habs sweaters for Red Wings ones. OnTheIce OnTheIce: No one player is the answer to the Leafs problems.
Stamkos isn't a quick fix. He's a piece of the puzzle. Just as the new coach and new management team. Babcock was brought in to change the culture and to attract top talent to the organization, top talent like Stamkos. You need a mix of young talent, veteran talent and leadership.
You won't win with a team of young kids hoping they all work out. That's exactly what everyone said when Lindros was brought in. And Phil Kessel and Mike Peca and Jeff O'Neill and Dion Phaneuff and every other talent that ate a gazillion dollars and brought nothing but mediocrity. OTI OTI: ask Edmonton The vote ain't in on Edmonton yet, but as long as we're talking about Edmonton, Gretzky, Fuhr, Kurri, Anderson, Messier...they were all young together, so Edmonton might not be who we'd ask about that. I get your point, but I disagree. The time now is for building picks not players.
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shockedcanadian
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Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:59 pm
Sorry I meant Zetterberg or Pavel who were chosen late. I'm getting old and whatnot.
No one player will be the answer, but Leafs have a tonne of picks and will be in the bottom tier next year as well. I say if some of these generational/franchise players are ever available you have to pick them up, especially when you don't have to give up anyone from your roster. It's quite a different situation if the Leafs are trading prospects to get a Stamkos, quite another when it is just about doling out the cash, which we all know they have an unlimited source of.
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Lemmy
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Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:11 pm
And what I'm saying is that the bottom tier ain't far enough down. They've been in the bottom tier for 20 years but never bad enough to draft a star. They haven't even drafted a quality NHL player since Vince Damphousse. They don't need, nor want Stamkos, because he'll have them continue to finish in the bottom tier instead of finishing DEAD LAST. DEAD LAST. 4, 5, 6 years in a row. With a little luck, one of those years brings a Lemieux or Lindros or Crosby or McDavid and the other 4 or 5 years bring top performers to fill in the roster.
If people were talking about McDavid as a target, great. Anyone older than McDavid is, IMO, a perpetuation of the same program that hasn't worked. If they're not going to run the Nordiques' playbook, they'll just continue to be the same Leafs we've seen year in and year out.
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shockedcanadian
CKA Elite
Posts: 3164
Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:30 pm
[quote="Lemmy"]And what I'm saying is that the bottom tier ain't far enough down. They've been in the bottom tier for 20 years but never bad enough to draft a star. They haven't even drafted a quality NHL player since Vince Damphousse. They don't need, nor want Stamkos, because he'll have them continue to finish in the bottom tier instead of finishing DEAD LAST. DEAD LAST. 4, 5, 6 years in a row. With a little luck, one of those years brings a Lemieux or Lindros or Crosby or McDavid and the other 4 or 5 years bring top performers to fill in the roster.
If people were talking about McDavid as a target, great. Anyone older than McDavid is, IMO, a perpetuation of the same program that hasn't worked. If they're not going to run the Nordiques' playbook, they'll just continue to be the same Leafs we've seen year in and year out.[/quote
Again I would quote the Oilers situation, this has been what, 7-8 years in the making? No guarantees.
You need great scouting. Finishing last and you could get a 2nd instead of a first, which could make a major difference in your projections. Look at how deflated Buffalo was when they didn't win the McDavid sweepstakes. This, while they picked up a player everyone suggested was a cant-miss star. Finish third last you could end up with a pick that is 5th. There are no guarantees due to the lottery. Just relying exclusively on first round draft picks to build a Cup is foolhardy and risky. The difference to your team based on the bounce of a ball is substantial in some cases.
If you can utilize every pick in every round for good value, as the Red Wings have traditionally done, you will make leaps and bounds towards your ability to succeed. In no sport is depth more important than hockey.
Leafs are going about it the right way by ridding themselves of the old guard of overpriced players. In general I would say they shouldn't pick up a big ticket FA, but with his age and skillset, Stamkos is one exception. Again, he could still be a premier player in his mid 30's, certainly he would still be a star by the time all the younger picks become ready to challenge for a Cup in 4-5 years.
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OnTheIce 
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Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:39 pm
Lemmy Lemmy: And what I'm saying is that the bottom tier ain't far enough down. They've been in the bottom tier for 20 years but never bad enough to draft a star. They haven't even drafted a quality NHL player since Vince Damphousse. They don't need, nor want Stamkos, because he'll have them continue to finish in the bottom tier instead of finishing DEAD LAST. DEAD LAST. 4, 5, 6 years in a row. With a little luck, one of those years brings a Lemieux or Lindros or Crosby or McDavid and the other 4 or 5 years bring top performers to fill in the roster.. If you're waging the future of your franchise on a lottery and a chance that that pick might be a generational player, you're going to have a really shitty team. You may want to visit the Leafs drafting record post-1984. Richardson, Rask, Boyes, Steen, etc.
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Posts: 11362
Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:43 pm
The Leafs have been rebuilding longer than the Oilers have been a team.
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