[Newsbot]

Title: Chaos in Kandahar: NATO opens fire on civilian bus, Taliban attack repelled
Category: World
Posted By: Hyack
Date: 2010-04-12 13:11:21

[Smacle]

"Everyone knows that these were just civilians and it was a civilian's bus. How could they shoot at the bus?"

Because not long ago a "civilian" Semi truck that was clearly "civilian" blew up a main bridge while killing American soldiers. Your driver was dumb, shut up.

[xerxes]

Just remember, they hate us for our freedoms...

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Do people over there normally ignore groups of armed men that motion for them to stop where they are?

[andyt]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Do people over there normally ignore groups of armed men that motion for them to stop where they are?

Yes.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

andyt andyt:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Do people over there normally ignore groups of armed men that motion for them to stop where they are?

Yes.

Well then, that's what happens.

[DerbyX]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

andyt andyt:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Do people over there normally ignore groups of armed men that motion for them to stop where they are?

Yes.

Well then, that's what happens.

Yes. What also happens next is that the government becomes further alienated from both the people and their allies and that more people move into the enemies camp.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Yes. What also happens next is that the government becomes further alienated from both the people and their allies and that more people move into the enemies camp.

I'm not justifying it, but let's face it, with the penchant over there for the enemy to look like civvies and drive civvy vehicles to do their dirty work, it really doesn't leave the troops in A-stan much room for second guessing.
How many people here are dumb enough to drive RIGHT up to a police roadblock when they are indicating you to stop and/or turn it around? Not that the cops will shoot you but common sense dictates that when armed people tell you to stop or turn around, the smart move would be to stop and/or turn around.

[DerbyX]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Yes. What also happens next is that the government becomes further alienated from both the people and their allies and that more people move into the enemies camp.

I'm not justifying it, but let's face it, with the penchant over there for the enemy to look like civvies and drive civvy vehicles to do their dirty work, it really doesn't leave the troops in A-stan much room for second guessing.
How many people here are dumb enough to drive RIGHT up to a police roadblock when they are indicating you to stop and/or turn it around? Not that the cops will shoot you but common sense dictates that when armed people tell you to stop or turn around, the smart move would be to stop and/or turn around.

Well it's as much a reality of saying civilians die because of uncertainty of threat as much as it is of saying that every such incident drives more people into the hands of the enemy. Incidents like these are great recruiting drives because the civilians over there do not simply accept our explanations.

[commanderkai]

To continue partially with PublicAnimal's point, if, let's say, this was an Afghan army/police checkpoint, and the driver was concerned they weren't actually real army or police officers, but rather a Taliban ambush...would you charge said roadblock, or would you turn around and get as far away as possible?

Maybe it's a cultural difference...but I'd try to get away, not ram through it.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Again, I'm not arguing the very negative impact it has, but what I DO see is some very disturbing similarities between their culture and ours. "I'm not responsible for my actions".
Quite frankly, I could see this same thing happening in Canada or the US involving the police. Not the shooting but the reaction.
What I mean is, let's say the police here in Canada or the US has a neighbourhood cordoned off while they search for a known terror suspect. A vehicle approaches the area and police motion for them to stop or turn around. The driver ignores the warning and continues approaching. Now the cops gotta think, is this just a civvy or buddy's accomplice? Without much time to make a determination, they fire at the approaching vehicle and kill/wound the driver/occupants.
I guarantee, there would be an outcry denouncing those police. I can point to a few individuals on this board that would jump on that bandwagon.

So, I really do see your point Derb, because some people over here simply don't accept the explanations.

[andyt]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Again, I'm not arguing the very negative impact it has, but what I DO see is some very disturbing similarities between their culture and ours. "I'm not responsible for my actions".
Quite frankly, I could see this same thing happening in Canada or the US involving the police. Not the shooting but the reaction.
What I mean is, let's say the police here in Canada or the US has a neighbourhood cordoned off while they search for a known terror suspect. A vehicle approaches the area and police motion for them to stop or turn around. The driver ignores the warning and continues approaching. Now the cops gotta think, is this just a civvy or buddy's accomplice? Without much time to make a determination, they fire at the approaching vehicle and kill/wound the driver/occupants.
I guarantee, there would be an outcry denouncing those police. I can point to a few individuals on this board that would jump on that bandwagon.

So, I really do see your point Derb, because some people over here simply don't accept the explanations.

There have been plenty of incidents where police shoot a driver or passenger of a vehicle that is trying to run them over. There's always a big outcry, tho of course the police are invariably exonerated. I'm 100% against the death penalty, but my heart never bleeds when the police shoot one of these dickwads, or their girlfriend riding in the truck.

[DerbyX]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Again, I'm not arguing the very negative impact it has, but what I DO see is some very disturbing similarities between their culture and ours. "I'm not responsible for my actions".
Quite frankly, I could see this same thing happening in Canada or the US involving the police. Not the shooting but the reaction.
What I mean is, let's say the police here in Canada or the US has a neighbourhood cordoned off while they search for a known terror suspect. A vehicle approaches the area and police motion for them to stop or turn around. The driver ignores the warning and continues approaching. Now the cops gotta think, is this just a civvy or buddy's accomplice? Without much time to make a determination, they fire at the approaching vehicle and kill/wound the driver/occupants.
I guarantee, there would be an outcry denouncing those police. I can point to a few individuals on this board that would jump on that bandwagon.

So, I really do see your point Derb, because some people over here simply don't accept the explanations.

Sure. The common statement is "we can't judge the actions of the people on the ground" (in this case and your police scenario. The problem is that goes especially double for the people living in that region in not trusting police or military road blocks. To greeting all uniformed soldiers approaching their home and family with guns at the ready.

In the end we are responsible for their safety first since we assumed that responsibility for ourselves. You ask questions and verify first before shooting and if those conditions represent an unacceptable risk to our soldiers (and it is) then we don't send troops there.

[andyt]

DerbyX DerbyX:

You ask questions and verify first before shooting and if those conditions represent an unacceptable risk to our soldiers (and it is) then we don't send troops there.

'cmon derby. I think we're in a futile war in Astan and should leave. But, what you're suggesting would mean we never send our troops to war at all. "I say, excuse me, sir, do you have evil intentions toward us?" "Allahu Akbar" Boom.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of these incidents involve troops over reacting and justifying their actions after the fact. But many of them also seem to involve civilians who are just oblivious. I have no idea how to sort that out, and I don't blame troops for having itchy trigger fingers with suiciders around.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Great point Derb, but ummmm how do you verify first when the vehicle in question won't stop to let you verify?