[Newsbot]

Title: Canada�s treatment of war veterans 'a national embarrassment'
Category: Misc CDN
Posted By: Hyack
Date: 2010-08-01 18:56:13
Canadian

[GreenTiger]

THe way we treat our veterans is an embarrasment as well.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

I remember after the NATO mission to Bosnia, several of our peacekeeping soldiers started coming down with some very strange ailments. Turns out is was a case of bauxite poisoning as these men had been positioned around and in bauxite mines.
Strange nervous disorders and in some cases blindness were the symptoms.
When the Defense Minister of the time decided that SOMETHING had to be done for these poor veterans, our warm and loving Liberal PM removed him from his cabinet position. As a result, fuck all was done for these soldiers.

[BartSimpson]

Veterans tend to be mistreated because their usefulness is done and their costs affect defense budgets. Move veterans care to the general health care budgets and you'll see these problems at least partly resolved.

[DerbyX]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

I remember after the NATO mission to Bosnia, several of our peacekeeping soldiers started coming down with some very strange ailments. Turns out is was a case of bauxite poisoning as these men had been positioned around and in bauxite mines.
Strange nervous disorders and in some cases blindness were the symptoms.
When the Defense Minister of the time decided that SOMETHING had to be done for these poor veterans, our warm and loving Liberal PM removed him from his cabinet position. As a result, fuck all was done for these soldiers.

Like now with our military loving PM?

[DerbyX]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Veterans tend to be mistreated because their usefulness is done and their costs affect defense budgets. Move veterans care to the general health care budgets and you'll see these problems at least partly resolved.

We do. Any military ex-member is entitled to the same treatment as any other citizen. If they are still an active member they are entitled to both military hospital treatment and provincial treatment.

[BartSimpson]

DerbyX DerbyX:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Veterans tend to be mistreated because their usefulness is done and their costs affect defense budgets. Move veterans care to the general health care budgets and you'll see these problems at least partly resolved.

We do. Any military ex-member is entitled to the same treatment as any other citizen. If they are still an active member they are entitled to both military hospital treatment and provincial treatment.

But the story is about a Canadian veteran's care system.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

DerbyX DerbyX:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

I remember after the NATO mission to Bosnia, several of our peacekeeping soldiers started coming down with some very strange ailments. Turns out is was a case of bauxite poisoning as these men had been positioned around and in bauxite mines.
Strange nervous disorders and in some cases blindness were the symptoms.
When the Defense Minister of the time decided that SOMETHING had to be done for these poor veterans, our warm and loving Liberal PM removed him from his cabinet position. As a result, fuck all was done for these soldiers.

Like now with our military loving PM?

Trust you to turn it into a partisan dig. Look, neither party has been exactly good to our veterans. But when you remove a Defense Minister from his post because he actually tried to help the veterans from the Bosnian conflict, that takes a special kind of callousness.

[DerbyX]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

DerbyX DerbyX:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

I remember after the NATO mission to Bosnia, several of our peacekeeping soldiers started coming down with some very strange ailments. Turns out is was a case of bauxite poisoning as these men had been positioned around and in bauxite mines.
Strange nervous disorders and in some cases blindness were the symptoms.
When the Defense Minister of the time decided that SOMETHING had to be done for these poor veterans, our warm and loving Liberal PM removed him from his cabinet position. As a result, fuck all was done for these soldiers.

Like now with our military loving PM?

Trust you to turn it into a partisan dig. Look, neither party has been exactly good to our veterans. But when you remove a Defense Minister from his post because he actually tried to help the veterans from the Bosnian conflict, that takes a special kind of callousness.

I do because its always the same. When it concerns the Libs and the military everything is "Those rotten military hating Liberal bastards" but when its Harper and the CPC it becomes "the government needs to treat the military better".

There is a distinct and hypocritical difference.

[Scape]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Veterans tend to be mistreated because their usefulness is done and their costs affect defense budgets. Move veterans care to the general health care budgets and you'll see these problems at least partly resolved.

Not just vets but elderly in general are treated like that. I hope the baby boom retiring will make some across the board changes here because there is serious need for reform. Senior care is often haphazard and an afterthought. Very little has been invested in a national strategy here. Basically, you get old you get shipped to an old folks home and your forgotten.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Like now with our military loving PM?

Trust you to turn it into a partisan dig. Look, neither party has been exactly good to our veterans. But when you remove a Defense Minister from his post because he actually tried to help the veterans from the Bosnian conflict, that takes a special kind of callousness.[/quote]

DerbyX DerbyX:

I do because its always the same. When it concerns the Libs and the military everything is "Those rotten military hating Liberal bastards" but when its Harper and the CPC it becomes "the government needs to treat the military better".
There is a distinct and hypocritical difference.

Too bad I don't support either party eh? Wow, I have you thinking I'm pro CPC and others thinking I'm pro Liberal, all because neither of you can see past your own partisanship. Pathetic.
I've hammered Iggy, Harper, Layton, Mulroney, Chretien and Martin equally in this forum. How you could possibly think I have more "love" for the CPC and Harper is beyond me.
Oh wait, it's partisanship..Anyone that says anything negative about the Libs MUST be a right wing supporter right? Regardless of whether they slam the CPC as well.
Come Derby, join me in the enlightened age where a person doesn't have to support one party over the other. Where people question the gov't's morals, actions and ethics regardless of which party is in power.
Let me put it this way, if there was a federal Marijuana Party member in my riding, I'd vote for them. IF, by some fluke the party got elected to lead, don't think for one minute I'm not gonna shit on them if they keep fucking around and don't do their jobs.
The difference between you and me in this matter Derby is, I'm willing to call a spade a spade, no matter who or what. You, on the other hand appear at least, to prefer to call a lump of coal a diamond in anticipation that it WILL eventually become one with enough pressure and heat.
The reason I singled out the Bosnia issue was because it was a particularily assholish move on ANYBODY'S part, regardless of their political bent.
If Mulroney had done it instead, it wouldn't have changed the fact that I would have still made my original post about the absolute disgusting regard in which our veterans are treated by some! Actually, my vehemence might have been even less curtailed considering the supposedly friendly attitude the right has towards the military.
The only distinct hypocricy I can see, is coming from you.

[DerbyX]

Boy you are testy tonight.

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Too bad I don't support either party eh? Wow, I have you thinking I'm pro CPC and others thinking I'm pro Liberal, all because neither of you can see past your own partisanship. Pathetic.

Actually sunshine I'm well aware of your political agenda. You just think you are smarter then everybody and can run the country much better then all the politicians. Think again.

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

I've hammered Iggy, Harper, Layton, Mulroney, Chretien and Martin equally in this forum. How you could possibly think I have more "love" for the CPC and Harper is beyond me.

I don't sunshine. I just responded to you crying about the Liberals and my comment was intended as much for the forum at large as you. The people who switch from "Damn Liberals" to "damn government" know who they are.

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Oh wait, it's partisanship..Anyone that says anything negative about the Libs MUST be a right wing supporter right? Regardless of whether they slam the CPC as well.
Come Derby, join me in the enlightened age where a person doesn't have to support one party over the other. Where people question the gov't's morals, actions and ethics regardless of which party is in power.

Nope. I've had many conversations with NDPers who have few kind words to say about the Libs. You are just having a bit of a moment here since you are getting hammered on other threads and you have a personal grudge against me.

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Let me put it this way, if there was a federal Marijuana Party member in my riding, I'd vote for them. IF, by some fluke the party got elected to lead, don't think for one minute I'm not gonna shit on them if they keep fucking around and don't do their jobs.

Let me put it this way. You will eventually shit on them since you have no understanding about what they do nor how it gets done. You will put unreasonable expectations on them then shit on them when they can't meet it.

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

The difference between you and me in this matter Derby is, I'm willing to call a spade a spade, no matter who or what. You, on the other hand appear at least, to prefer to call a lump of coal a diamond in anticipation that it WILL eventually become one with enough pressure and heat.

No you aren't. You have your biases and they are religious in scope. You are willing to call a spade a spade when its some big church but when you get into the core of your beliefs you will kick and scream and call it anything but a spade.

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

The reason I singled out the Bosnia issue was because it was a particularily assholish move on ANYBODY'S part, regardless of their political bent.

I don't care why you did it. It was a partisan asshole move to bitch about a former PM not responsible for the actions of the current PM in a thread about those very actions. It did make you sound very much like ridenrain who responded to every single criticism thrown at Harper with a scathing red herring about the Liberals.

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

If Mulroney had done it instead, it wouldn't have changed the fact that I would have still made my original post about the absolute disgusting regard in which our veterans are treated by some! Actually, my vehemence might have been even less curtailed considering the supposedly friendly attitude the right has towards the military.
The only distinct hypocricy I can see, is coming from you.

That is because you didn't bother to read and understand.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Boy you are testy tonight.

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Too bad I don't support either party eh? Wow, I have you thinking I'm pro CPC and others thinking I'm pro Liberal, all because neither of you can see past your own partisanship. Pathetic.

DerbyX DerbyX:

Actually sunshine I'm well aware of your political agenda. You just think you are smarter then everybody and can run the country much better then all the politicians. Think again.

Ohh is that what I think? Well princess, we know yer real name now, it's the Amazing Kreskin. Quick, what number am I thinking of?

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

I've hammered Iggy, Harper, Layton, Mulroney, Chretien and Martin equally in this forum. How you could possibly think I have more "love" for the CPC and Harper is beyond me.

DerbyX DerbyX:

I don't sunshine. I just responded to you crying about the Liberals and my comment was intended as much for the forum at large as you. The people who switch from "Damn Liberals" to "damn government" know who they are.

Nice backpeddle considering you quoted ME before espousing your "wisdom" to the great unwashed masses.

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Oh wait, it's partisanship..Anyone that says anything negative about the Libs MUST be a right wing supporter right? Regardless of whether they slam the CPC as well.
Come Derby, join me in the enlightened age where a person doesn't have to support one party over the other. Where people question the gov't's morals, actions and ethics regardless of which party is in power.

DerbyX DerbyX:

Nope. I've had many conversations with NDPers who have few kind words to say about the Libs. You are just having a bit of a moment here since you are getting hammered on other threads and you have a personal grudge against me.

Hmmm I'm getting hammered in other threads? Wow, you and I have a HUGE difference in what being hammered entails. As far as a personal grudge goes, we have our BIG differences of opinion on religion and /or God, if you've taken it personally, that's your problem, not mine.

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Let me put it this way, if there was a federal Marijuana Party member in my riding, I'd vote for them. IF, by some fluke the party got elected to lead, don't think for one minute I'm not gonna shit on them if they keep fucking around and don't do their jobs.

DerbyX DerbyX:

Let me put it this way. You will eventually shit on them since you have no understanding about what they do nor how it gets done. You will put unreasonable expectations on them then shit on them when they can't meet it.

Yep, yer right, handing our country over to foreign interests a la Mulroney and Harper, screwing our veterans a la pretty much every PM that's been in power, handing out billions of dollars for nothing a la Chretien and Harper and so on ad nauseum. I'm very unreasonable being disgusted about that.
I should be ashamed of myself for not having the same low expectations of gov't you do.

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

The difference between you and me in this matter Derby is, I'm willing to call a spade a spade, no matter who or what. You, on the other hand appear at least, to prefer to call a lump of coal a diamond in anticipation that it WILL eventually become one with enough pressure and heat.

DerbyX DerbyX:

No you aren't. You have your biases and they are religious in scope. You are willing to call a spade a spade when its some big church but when you get into the core of your beliefs you will kick and scream and call it anything but a spade.

Got any leftover straw from that argument? Rumplestiltskin is over and I'd like to get some gold thread. So my core beliefs in God and Christ are wrong cuz YOU say there's no such people/entities. And you accuse me of thinking I'm smarter than everyone else. Funny stuff that.

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

The reason I singled out the Bosnia issue was because it was a particularily assholish move on ANYBODY'S part, regardless of their political bent.

DerbyX DerbyX:

I don't care why you did it. It was a partisan asshole move to bitch about a former PM not responsible for the actions of the current PM in a thread about those very actions. It did make you sound very much like ridenrain who responded to every single criticism thrown at Harper with a scathing red herring about the Liberals.

Yeah, that's right, hospital beds for veterans ONLY became a problem after Harper got in office.
Mulroney passed the buck to Chretien, who passed the buck to Martin, who passed the buck to Harper, who will most assuredly pass the buck to the next person and so on and so on.
Get it yet???? This has been an ongoing problem for wayyy to long now. A lack of beds pales in comparison to firing the man who was going to HELP our veterans get the proper care and treatment they deserve. Did you ever stop to think (pardon the exaggeration) that if the THEN Defense Minister had been allowed to do his part, a lack of beds might not be an issue now?

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

If Mulroney had done it instead, it wouldn't have changed the fact that I would have still made my original post about the absolute disgusting regard in which our veterans are treated by some! Actually, my vehemence might have been even less curtailed considering the supposedly friendly attitude the right has towards the military.
The only distinct hypocricy I can see, is coming from you.

DerbyX DerbyX:

That is because you didn't bother to read and understand.

What's to understand? Yer a partisan liberal hack. No surprises there.

[DerbyX]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Ohh is that what I think? Well princess, we know yer real name now, it's the Amazing Kreskin. Quick, what number am I thinking of?

69 dudes.

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Nice backpeddle considering you quoted ME before espousing your "wisdom" to the great unwashed masses.

That's not back peddling. You went into a partisan hissy-fit rant against Libs over things you have no clue about. You didn't cry about Harper and I called you on it.

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Hmmm I'm getting hammered in other threads? Wow, you and I have a HUGE difference in what being hammered entails. As far as a personal grudge goes, we have our BIG differences of opinion on religion and /or God, if you've taken it personally, that's your problem, not mine.

Yeah you are. The fact that you have exploded on me before with angry idiocy after I defeated your logic over Hitler being a christian all points to a personal grudge sunshine.

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Let me put it this way, if there was a federal Marijuana Party member in my riding, I'd vote for them. IF, by some fluke the party got elected to lead, don't think for one minute I'm not gonna shit on them if they keep fucking around and don't do their jobs.

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Yep, yer right, handing our country over to foreign interests a la Mulroney and Harper, screwing our veterans a la pretty much every PM that's been in power, handing out billions of dollars for nothing a la Chretien and Harper and so on ad nauseum. I'm very unreasonable being disgusted about that.
I should be ashamed of myself for not having the same low expectations of gov't you do.

Case in point. You have no idea what it takes to run a country and assume the big bad government is doing bad by the vets. So far the current government and every other government for the last 50 years has done bad for the military, vets, tax-payer, provinces, victims of crime, students, parents, blondes, redheads, brunettes ..... Get the picture?

I notice you didn't exactly uphold the other points of the article namely that those criticizing the Harper government over their Vets treatment also cite the F35 purchase. Will you support scaling that back and taking that money to do what you want? Ever donated directly to the cause?

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Got any leftover straw from that argument? Rumplestiltskin is over and I'd like to get some gold thread. So my core beliefs in God and Christ are wrong cuz YOU say there's no such people/entities. And you accuse me of thinking I'm smarter than everyone else. Funny stuff that.

Again you got it wrong. You are more then willing to call a spade a spade ie speak bluntly and honestly when you can denograte things you don't care about but when I point out that christians are doing evil you go batshit crazy and do everything possible to discount those people as christians and any connection to JC and his teachings despite the loads of evidence I can produce showing quite the opposite.

You have your biases and partisan motives too.

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Yeah, that's right, hospital beds for veterans ONLY became a problem after Harper got in office.

In a way yes. When Chretien was doing it it was because he hated the military. Harper was going to fix all that. He has been PM for 4+ years now. At the time of this thread it certainly is his fault for not addressing it.

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Mulroney passed the buck to Chretien, who passed the buck to Martin, who passed the buck to Harper, who will most assuredly pass the buck to the next person and so on and so on.

Next time don't signal anybody out then if you believe that. Its good to know though that you have the answers they all didn't.

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Get it yet???? This has been an ongoing problem for wayyy to long now. A lack of beds pales in comparison to firing the man who was going to HELP our veterans get the proper care and treatment they deserve. Did you ever stop to think (pardon the exaggeration) that if the THEN Defense Minister had been allowed to do his part, a lack of beds might not be an issue now?

I don't think for a moment he would have done it nor do I think he would have been any better then the guys we have now who were even more able to get it done what with military loving Harper and of course many more years of foresight to see the problem needed fixing.

Why hasn't our current Defense Minister addressed it? Does he hate the Vets?

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

What's to understand? Yer a partisan liberal hack. No surprises there.

You are a partisan hack in your own right. You just haven't got any current candidates you care to hack about.

[Khar]

To be honest, I'm not surprised to see this article. It's been a big point of contention since the new years began -- from January through April (although it did begin getting a little steam in November), the media had a few articles where criticism on the treatment of Veterans was a point of contention parties had with the Conservatives, and Steven Harper himself. This year was really the first year we saw a concentrated push by Robert Oliphant on the issue (LPC Critic Vet Affairs), and I think it's because Ignatieff more or less turned his eye towards this issue at around the same time, and as time passed the other opposition leaders, as they are quoted in this article, joined in on those particular criticisms.

I do find it somewhat disappointing that there has been a lack of discourse on this for so long, given that one of the center points of this dispute, the Veteran's Charter, came out in 2010. Jean-Pierre Blackburn (CPC Min Vet Affairs) is not in the best position politically after the Tequila incident, but I'd hoped his responses would be a little quicker out there after the last few ones, especially those in April. I don't expect one right now, since he is performing official duties in Belgium and France at the moment after finishing his duties in South Korea, so this article has come out at quite an inopportune time (which smells fishy considering how it's hit the media so hard, which means it's likely a bit of a smear on the part of the Opposition, but considering it's been a running discussion he did have time to head it off more publicly than has been done thus far). That this comes on the heels of Blackburn mentioning that there'd been plans to downsize this section again, as recent as a week ago, according to the news articles I've been reading.

While we do have a lot less veterans from the World Wars in these programs, I am betting part of the problem being experienced is improved mortality (and this might have been mentioned in the article) of the soldiers in general. People simply survive wounds that would have killed them as little as twenty years ago. Unfortunately, with successive cuts to the military and related programs through various successive governments, maintaining the level of competency gained during the first set of reforms way back when which improved Veteran's lives has been gradually falling by the wayside in terms of demands for cost cutting measures even before Cretien got in, from what I remember, and likely well earlier than that.