[Newsbot]

Title: Blue Jays' struggles continue in loss to Astros
Category: Sports
Posted By: Hyack
Date: 2013-08-24 21:41:59
Canadian

[Hyack]

It's so sad, it's actually painfull to watch these guys play lately, even the worst team in MLB right now looks good when playing the Jays.

[QBall]

Thank God for the Argos, the only team in this city that's able to bring any pride to it.

[bootlegga]

Hyack Hyack:

It's so sad, it's actually painfull to watch these guys play lately, even the worst team in MLB right now looks good when playing the Jays.

It's even worse when one remembers all the hype the Jays got after that blockbuster trade. Lots of people thought they were going to win it all, or at the very least, make the playoffs and take a run at it.

[Lemmy]

The Jays' problem is they keep taking on "reclamation projects". They keep acquiring talented but selfish/arrogant attitude problems. Jose Bautista and his yipping at umpires, Edwin Encarnacion and that goofy elbow-wing thing he does when he hits one out, the V-thing they do over the eyes when they get a hit. It's one thing to do shit like that when you're winning, but when you aren't, it's just selfishness.

This team will never win unless talent comes with character. It was a mistake to ever expect that a team led by characterless boobs like Bautista and Encarnacion could have any measure of team success. And it's a pattern with Alex Anthopolous, who's also aloof and arrogant. Until he's replaced as GM, the losing will continue.

[OnTheIce]

Lemmy, you're a numbers guy, right?

Their problem isn't character, attitudes or silly things they do when they hit the ball. It's pitching.

The Blue Jays have some of the best character guys in the bullpen. Dickey, Buehrle, Oliver and Janssen. The problem is, the pitching staff has been awful.

They are

-9th in the MLB for runs per game.
-2nd in Home runs
-12th in OBP
-7th in RBI's.
-6th in stolen bases.

They are above almost all of the AL East counterparts in most offensive categories with the exception of the Red Sox. Their offence isn't the problem.

Hitting, runs and character with the hitters aren't the problem. The pitching stinks.

Their pitching is #2 in runs allowed.
-#2 in home runs allowed.
-They have the second worst team ERA in the MLB next to the Astros.

[Lemmy]

You're right, the starting pitching is atrocious, but you're underestimating the importance of playing a team game versus playing for yourself. Even if this team had good pitching they'd still not be a contender. As for character guys, Buehrle is a pro, but he doesn't want to be here. Dickie a character guy? Read his autobiography and then tell me how impressed you are with his character. Oliver didn't want to come back this year and only did so because Anthopolous refused to waive his option.

I've played on winning and losing ballteams and the teams that had the most team success didn't have the most talent. They had the least selfishness.

Why are the Red Sox in 1st place? They have less talent than Toronto (offense, starting pitching, bullpen). They win because they have character and they play a team game. They put winning ahead of everything. Turns out John Farrell was a good manager after all. He was just hamstrung by the selfish egos he had in Toronto.

[OnTheIce]

Lemmy Lemmy:

You're right, the starting pitching is atrocious, but you're underestimating the importance of playing a team game versus playing for yourself. Even if this team had good pitching they'd still not be a contender. As for character guys, Buehrle is a pro, but he doesn't want to be here. Dickie a character guy? Read his autobiography and then tell me how impressed you are with his character. Oliver didn't want to come back this year and only did so because Anthopolous refused to waive his option.

I've played on winning and losing ballteams and the teams that had the most team success didn't have the most talent. They had the least selfishness.

Why are the Red Sox in 1st place? They have less talent than Toronto (offense, starting pitching, bullpen). They win because they have character and they play a team game. They put winning ahead of everything. Turns out John Farrell was a good manager after all. He was just hamstrung by the selfish egos he had in Toronto.

I must disagree. Baseball is a numbers game. Top notch pitching would indeed have the Jays contending for a playoff spot.

Character doesn't win games. While your experience may be different, the numbers don't lie.

Sure, character helps with morale and work ethic but it's not the be-all-end-all for baseball. Chemistry does play a role in team performance. With all the poor characters on the team, as you claim, they should all be performing poorly when in fact, they're at the top or close to in a number of key offensive categories.

Why is Boston in 1st place? Their pitching staff has an ERA above the league average and they're 4th in strikeouts. Their offence is at the top of all the major categories. RBI's, BAvg, OBP, etc.

[Lemmy]

The thing is, the Jays had top notch pitching, it just didn't work out that way. The talent was there, it was the execution that was lacking. In the other hand, the Red Sox were picked by most to finish in the cellar. But character outperforms talent.

What traditional baseball stats don't tell you is situational execution. Colby Rasmus, for example, has some of the best stats among ML centerfielders. Problem is, those hits and RBIs have come in 14-1 wins. With 2 on and 1 out in the 8th inning of a tie game, he's a guaranteed strikeout.

[OnTheIce]

Lemmy Lemmy:

The thing is, the Jays had top notch pitching, it just didn't work out that way. The talent was there, it was the execution that was lacking. In the other hand, the Red Sox were picked by most to finish in the cellar. But character outperforms talent.

What traditional baseball stats don't tell you is situational execution. Colby Rasmus, for example, has some of the best stats among ML centerfielders. Problem is, those hits and RBIs have come in 14-1 wins. With 2 on and 1 out in the 8th inning of a tie game, he's a guaranteed strikeout.

Players have bad years. To blame the poor performance of the pitching staff on the poor character of some of the hitters is ridiculous in my opinion. You have a perceived notion that these guys aren't character guys when you really don't know if they are or aren't.

Character never outperforms talent. You can't teach talent, character enhances your talent and gets the most out of your abilities.

As for Rasmus, hardly near the top of the performance categories. 12th in average, 13th in OBP and 23rd in hits. "Clutch" hitting is a mere coincidence to to place a lot of stock in situational hitting is misleading. It depends on the people batting in front of you and where you sit in the order.

Joey Votto is an awful .155 with RISP. The problem is, he's only had 58 at-bats with RISP and 2 outs. The Red as a whole were 11 games over .500 at the All-Star break with a .200 RISP.

Would you rather have Jose Bautisa who's hitting .343 with men on and 2 outs or Joey Votto with his .155? I'll take Votto any day of the week.

FWIW, Rasmus is .194 with 2 men on and 2 out and .333 with 2 out and a man on 3rd.