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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:46 pm
 


Title: Analysis: U.S. drone warfare comes under increasing attack from legal experts
Category: Uncle Sam
Posted By: Zipperfish
Date: 2013-02-01 11:42:00


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:46 pm
 


WASHINGTON -- Civilian death estimates are referred to as "bug splat."

The weekly White House meetings to evaluate candidates for the "kill list" are tagged "Terror Tuesdays."

Among the many lives that hang in the balance at these meetings are those of the wives and children of alleged terrorists, the people who come to the aid of blast victims after an attack and people who show up at their funerals. The logic is that if they know the terrorist, they must be collaborators so why not "double tap"--hit them with a second strike.

This is the covert world of killer drone warfare, what some people refer to as Washington's worse-kept secret.

This is a sort of armchair killing where drones are remotely piloted from bases in the United States. Using drones makes going into battle safer and cheaper for the attacker but not for the attacked. It's Lethal Toy Story.

Ben Emmerson, the United Nations' special rapporteur on human rights, said the rise in the use of drone technology "represents a real challenge to the framework of established international law" and has called on the international community to create standards for drone warfare and "reach a consensus on the legality of its use," particularly in counter-terrorism and counter-insurgency.

What worries many is that drones lower the threshold for making war and may violate international and humanitarian law as civilians in countries not at war with the U.S. pay with their lives.

With the state department claiming the number of al-Qaida members is growing, the question is whether drone killings work.

Micah Zenko, a security policy fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations in Washington, said reports from both military and academic experts conclude that military force rarely leads to the elimination of terrorist organizations. Most have been eliminated either because they were infiltrated by police or as a result of a peaceful settlement.

Both for political reasons and because of the questionable legality of it, The U.S. drone program is cloaked in a frayed veil of secrecy. While American courts have refused to order the government to release information about a program that officially doesn't exist, the Obama administration leaks when it benefits Obama's image. It's hard to keep Hellfire air-to-surface missile attacks secret.

Pre-election concerns that Obama was appearing weak resulted in a series of New York Times stories in which unnamed administration sources depicted him as tough enough to make the weekly drone-kill decisions. Obama became the moral man saddled with a troubling but necessary drone war to keep America safe. One official quoted Obama as saying that the decision to kill Anwar al-Aulaqi, an al-Qaida recruiter and an American citizen, in Yemen in September 2011 "was an easy one."

This article was followed by a speech last June by Obama's "high priest" of killer drones, John Brennan, who at the time was his lead terrorism adviser and is now his nominee to head the CIA. He said that "in order to prevent terrorist attacks on the United States and to save American lives, the United States government conducts targeted strikes against specific al-Qaida terrorists, sometimes using remotely piloted aircraft, often referred to publicly as drones."

The killer drone program began under former president George H.W. Bush in 2002. Fifty strikes occurred under his administration. Obama has accelerated the program seven-fold with 350 strikes, according to Zenko and other experts.

Estimates vary as to how many "terrorists" and how many "civilians" have been killed. Of the 32 al-Qaida leaders on Obama's kill list, 22 have been killed, 21 by drones, Zenko said. The total number of people killed is much higher -- more than 3,000 according to some accounts. How many of these were civilians depends on how "civilian" is defined. The administration claims civilian deaths are minimal. Non-government organizations claim the figure is more than 2,000.

Naureen Shah, association director of the counterterrorism and human rights project at Columbia Law School, said the criteria for a drone strike fall into two categories. So-called "personality" attacks means that the government knows the identity of the person targeted. "Signature" attacks target people whose identities are unknown but whose behaviour gives a terrorist signature. For example, they could be seen carrying a weapon or transporting, say, fertilizer that could be used in improvised explosive devices. Or they could be simply giving First Aid to a victim of a drone strike.

"The U.S. has never acknowledged that they conduct signature strikes," Zenko said. "When John Brennan was asked the question specifically, he refused to answer. And the reason is it gets into a lot of sort of international legal problems."

Under the 2001 congressional authorization for military force, the CIA and the military, which carry out the drone attacks, have to show that the targets pose a significant and imminent threat of violent attack to the U.S. homeland. The problem with signature strikes is that if the identity of the targets is unknown, how can they be sure that they pose such a threat? A so-called "terrorist" in Yemen could simply be a militant fighting the local government. A Taliban fighter hiding in Pakistan is commonly interested only in forcing NATO soldiers out of his native country Afghanistan.

The U.S. is operating killer drones in Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia and is seeking a base in North Africa where it has begun talks with Niger. The U.S. is not at war with any of these three countries and none of their governments has officially approved the attacks, largely because they are so unpopular among their people.

Shah said it is illegal under international and humanitarian law for the U.S. to be attacking a country with which it is not at war. This becomes a possible war crime when the U.S. is killing civilians who pose no danger to the United States, he said.

Emmerson notes that under international human rights law it is "unlawful to engage in any form of targeted killing." Countries chasing terrorists outside an area of armed combat must first try to make an arrest. Lethal force can be used only as a matter of "immediate self-defence."

Brennan states the U.S. is in a global war with a stateless enemy that transcends national boundaries. America's main concern is that another al-Qaida training camp will spring up on some remote tribal area. No U.S. president wants that to happen on his watch.

The United States since 2004 has refused UN requests for information about the drone attacks, which under international law the U.S. is obliged to provide.

So last month Emmerson announced he will do 25 case studies of drone attacks in Pakistan, Yemen and the Sahel to determine whether there is any "unlawful killing" that could trigger a war crimes investigation. He hopes to present his report to the UN General Assembly in October.

wmarsden@postmedia.com

-- Copyright (c) Postmedia News


Last edited by Zipperfish on Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:50 pm
 


PBS had a great program about them on the last NOVA.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/military/r ... rones.html

Some systems are very sophisticated. I like the one that hovers, and you toss a hula-hoop up, and it flies through the falling hoop.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:55 pm
 


Theya re pretty cool to be sure. And, like everything else, the technology is progressing exponentially. I think their use has expanded to the point that it is time to start asking some of the tougher questions. When they were picking the low-hanging fruit it was OK.

Now there are these signature strikes. As well, as automation continues, will the drones themselves soon be initiating deadly force? And after that, Caleb, how long to SkyNet??? :lol:

Seriously, I don't like innocent lives being referred to as bug splat. The level of impunity implied by that statement says to me that it's time for the American public to start asking some hard questions.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:06 pm
 


Zipperfish Zipperfish:
Seriously, I don't like innocent lives being referred to as bug splat. The level of impunity implied by that statement says to me that it's time for the American public to start asking some hard questions.


Very true. Reducing human lives like that is a bad sign. The US has spent trillions to try to reduce accidental civillian deaths using hyper accurate weapons, now they seem to be on the trend of reducing equipement cost and training cost by using less accurate drones. I understand that the enemy knows this and pulls a "Hamas" and hunkers down between a school and a hospital, forcing some measure of innocent casualties.

But insignificant bugs to be squashed, they are not. Remote pilot vehicles won't ever result in zero unintended casualties; that's what ground troops are for. And even they are not 100%.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:15 pm
 


DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Very true. Reducing human lives like that is a bad sign. The US has spent trillions to try to reduce accidental civillian deaths using hyper accurate weapons, now they seem to be on the trend of reducing equipement cost and training cost by using less accurate drones. I understand that the enemy knows this and pulls a "Hamas" and hunkers down between a school and a hospital, forcing some measure of innocent casualties.

But insignificant bugs to be squashed, they are not. Remote pilot vehicles won't ever result in zero unintended casualties; that's what ground troops are for. And even they are not 100%.


Yes they are a great tool. And we probably have no idea what the ones on the R&D side of things are doing right now. Some pretty amazing stuff, I'll bet.

When they start getting deployed domestically folks might antsier. I should beat teh rush and start a local "Watch Out For Skynet" chapter now.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:29 pm
 


Unless we go back to warfare that consists only of hacking each other in face-to-face combat with swords and axes unintended deaths will always happen. The basic nature of physics involving explosives and bullets, combined with the ever-present fog of battle to confuse things even further, ensures.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:37 pm
 


Thanos Thanos:
Unless we go back to warfare that consists only of hacking each other in face-to-face combat with swords and axes unintended deaths will always happen. The basic nature of physics involving explosives and bullets, combined with the ever-present fog of battle to confuse things even further, ensures.


No doubt, but when remove yourself too far from the damage, from the reality of death, then bad things can happen.

Think of the Deathstar superlaser destroying Princess Leia's home planet of Alderaan. As a spectator, rather than being agahst at the billions of lives vaporized, I was like "That was fucking cool." Of course, I was 11. And sitting next to my mom, so probably didn't drop the f-bomb. But still.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:41 pm
 


What it boils down to is effectiveness. Police work, infiltration, etc. can work, yes. But what means can be used to strike at the heart of terrorist problems before they get to the point of imminent danger, when attacks are about to happen?

Drones are obviously an effective means of striking at terrorists where they live...

"Of the 32 al-Qaida leaders on Obama's kill list, 22 have been killed, 21 by drones"

That's an impressive effectiveness.

It's not like there are a lot of alternatives. And it's not like alternatives would lead to less loss of life through "collateral damage".

Personally I like the idea of terrorist leaders not being able to sleep at night.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:17 pm
 


Zipperfish Zipperfish:
Thanos Thanos:
Unless we go back to warfare that consists only of hacking each other in face-to-face combat with swords and axes unintended deaths will always happen. The basic nature of physics involving explosives and bullets, combined with the ever-present fog of battle to confuse things even further, ensures.


No doubt, but when remove yourself too far from the damage, from the reality of death, then bad things can happen.

Think of the Deathstar superlaser destroying Princess Leia's home planet of Alderaan. As a spectator, rather than being agahst at the billions of lives vaporized, I was like "That was fucking cool." Of course, I was 11. And sitting next to my mom, so probably didn't drop the f-bomb. But still.


Yeah, if Star Wars were redone as an adult film or as a parable to something like WW2, instead of a kids thing designed to sell toys, the whole storyline would have been quite horrifying on every moral level. Palpatine was a literal Mega-Hitler, willing to kill uncounted numbers of billions in order to gain and hold on to power. Vader, setting all his BS aside in Revenge Of The Sith about "ending the war and bringing back stability" actually had the morals of someone who would have commanded a death camp. The imperial troopers would have been no different from the SS or Wehrmacht making someone dig their own grave before they shot them.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:44 pm
 


DrCaleb DrCaleb:
Very true. Reducing human lives like that is a bad sign. The US has spent trillions to try to reduce accidental civillian deaths using hyper accurate weapons, now they seem to be on the trend of reducing equipement cost and training cost by using less accurate drones.

The drones are as accurate as the weapons they deploy, which are some of the most accurate weapons in the world. The problem is drone operators routinely drop bombs based on sh*t intelligence. Vietnam pilots would consider their target intelligence amazingly accurate in comparison.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:03 pm
 


We in the West are great at efficiently waging war but not so great at dealing with our boys and the odd girl coming home in boxes.

More drones and further automation of combat is inevitable. With the whole’ I Robot’ twist, I find it unlikely that that we will allow AI to decide what to kill or not.
We will always have a military guy sat at a monitor deciding whether to pull the trigger.

Personally I think people who are against the concept of drones are just against the concept of us using ANY military force. I truly think a lot of these opponents would be happier seeing our guys in bags or with bits blown off than us using drones.

Drones are perfect in force projection in places like Afghanistan/ Pakistan. The hue and cry from the corrupt Islamo-facists who run those countries is a sign to me that we are using the right use-of-force option.

Debate on the use of drones shows that our democracies have the correct checks and balances on our military and I’m all for it. We have the most accountable militaries on the planet. Unlike the shower of shite we are fighting.


Afghanistan is not worth the bones of a single Pomeranian grenadier. But drones are expendable.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:50 pm
 


Well said, EB !


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:25 am
 


EyeBrock EyeBrock:
We in the West are great at efficiently waging war but not so great at dealing with our boys and the odd girl coming home in boxes.

More drones and further automation of combat is inevitable. With the whole’ I Robot’ twist, I find it unlikely that that we will allow AI to decide what to kill or not.
We will always have a military guy sat at a monitor deciding whether to pull the trigger.

Personally I think people who are against the concept of drones are just against the concept of us using ANY military force. I truly think a lot of these opponents would be happier seeing our guys in bags or with bits blown off than us using drones.

Drones are perfect in force projection in places like Afghanistan/ Pakistan. The hue and cry from the corrupt Islamo-facists who run those countries is a sign to me that we are using the right use-of-force option.

Debate on the use of drones shows that our democracies have the correct checks and balances on our military and I’m all for it. We have the most accountable militaries on the planet. Unlike the shower of shite we are fighting.


Afghanistan is not worth the bones of a single Pomeranian grenadier. But drones are expendable.



Exactly. [B-o]

How do you play the empathy card and use the loss of military lives as a reason to protest if there are none.

This is a very large hurdle for the peace activists and that select group of lunatic baptist church members to overcome.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:30 pm
 


Not against drones by a long shot. Incredibly effedctive in assymetric warfare like this. But, just like other aspects of the military, scrutiny to avoid civilan casualites is needed. The fact that America values the life of civilians is what makes them better.


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