[eureka]

There are many ideas of what Socialism is. There is one common strain and that is democratic equality.

That is missing from the NDP and, in fact, is now missing from Socialist Parties the world over.

Today's Socialists would have been considered as Centralists, fiscal conservatives, in the past. Socialism, by any definition, ended in Canada with the demise of the "Waffle" wing.

They are not all that socially progressive now, either.

Socialism has become the Party of Small business and the Middle Class.

Heck, Jefferson would have fitted comfortably into the modern NDP_ with his belief in the Right to property of every male

[Mustang1]

Socialism is alive and well in contemporary Canadian politics. Common themes that thread through ideological socialism centre around (clustering values, outlooks and ideas) can be characterized by community, cooperation, equality, social class and elements of common ownership (see Heywood). All of these characteristics have been incorporated into modern Canadian politics.

Moreover, Social Democracy, with its emphasis (and tensions within ideological socialism) on humanized capitalism, redistribution, mixed economies, economic managnemt (as opposed to central planning) and promotion of the liberal-democratic state are by and large reflected in many mainstream platforms in Canada.

Lastly, the often-called third way, or Neorevisionism, (a mixture of social democracy, social liberalism, communitarianism) promotes a more politically pragmatic approach that centres on the information society, market economies, equality of opportunity, inclusion promotion, welfare-to-work policies, and the acceptance of a competition/market state. Again, this is a component of many Canadian political parties.

While revolutionary socialism falls on deaf ears to many Canadians, its ideological variants have always been, to an extent, components of the major political parties for years.

[ShepherdsDog]

A lot of what you've labelled have been elements of every human society from the very beginning. I'd label them societal constructs rather than socialism per se. They existed long before we came up with the terms socialism, democracy, capitalism or liberalism.

[Mustang1]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

A lot of what you've labelled have been elements of every human society from the very beginning. I'd label them societal constructs rather than socialism per se. They existed long before we came up with the terms socialism, democracy, capitalism or liberalism.

True, I'd say that many - equality, social class, humanized capitalism, redistribution, mixed economies, economic management and promotion of the liberal-democratic state, information society, market economies, equality of opportunity, inclusion promotion, welfare-to-work policies, and the acceptance of a competition/market state all depend on a post-Enlightenment, post-Industrialization society to crystallize ideologically.

Great work on the topic of socialism can be found in Heywood's "Political Ideologies" and Gidden's "The Third Way: The Renewal of Social Democracy". The former does a great job of breaking down the ideology and breaking down the defining characteristics.

[eureka]

If you accept that as Socialism, then what is so "batshit stupid about it? What is it that you object to?

[ShepherdsDog]

Altruism as the basis of a society is ridiculous. Anyone who has observed human nature knows that we operate on the principle of WIIFM. We are hardwired to take care of me and mine, first and foremost....anyone who thinks otherwise well that's where the incredulity comes into play.

[martin14]

eureka eureka:

There are many ideas of what Socialism is. There is one common strain and that is democratic equality.

Yup, only one party to vote for......

[ShepherdsDog]

Everyone is usually equally poor and oppressed in countries that refer to themselves as 'socialist' or 'people's democratic republic(insert term for shit)........unless you're a member of the Party, then line ups, poverty and shortages are for others. Orwell said it best in Animal Farm when he said some animals are more equal than others.

Looks like someone has been drinking the lead laced kool-aid since childhood.

[Zipperfish]

We have a socialized military, socialized medicine, socialized education. Not doing too bad.

[eureka]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Altruism as the basis of a society is ridiculous. Anyone who has observed human nature knows that we operate on the principle of WIIFM. We are hardwired to take care of me and mine, first and foremost....anyone who thinks otherwise well that's where the incredulity comes into play.

Such a cynic!

Altruism is a biological imperative that is equally as important to survival as is self interest. That was Darwin's dilemma with respect to his early theorising. He resolved it. Various species, including humans exhibit altruistic behaviour in sacrificing self for the survival of the group. That does not seem to extend to the larger population, though. Altruism and cooperation are elements without which no society will thrive. Right back as far as hpmp habilis caring behaviour has been observed.

[eureka]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Everyone is usually equally poor and oppressed in countries that refer to themselves as 'socialist' or 'people's democratic republic(insert term for shit)........unless you're a member of the Party, then line ups, poverty and shortages are for others. Orwell said it best in Animal Farm when he said some animals are more equal than others.

Looks like someone has been drinking the lead laced kool-aid since childhood.

Orwell said many things. One that is particularly relevant at this time - and for the past thirty years - is that "Fascism is the counter attack of Capitalism on the Unions."

Your reference does not include all those countries that have been Socialist or are still Socialist. It is to Totalitarian countries.

Poverty rates are higher in both Canada and the USA than in any of the "Socialist" European countries. Wealth and income distribution is more unequal, too. In fact, that distribution is more unequal and unfair in the USA than in any country in the world, except possibly a few failing states.

[Thanos]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Altruism as the basis of a society is ridiculous. Anyone who has observed human nature knows that we operate on the principle of WIIFM. We are hardwired to take care of me and mine, first and foremost....anyone who thinks otherwise well that's where the incredulity comes into play.

Enlightened self-interest has to have a healthy dose of concern for others. Plus it feels good to do the right thing as opposed to wallowing in selfishness. Yeah, we gotta put the brakes on the governments when they expand too much and allow perpetual welfare addicts to live off the state for their entire lives (e.g. like the riotous scum in Tottenham). But being there to provide the short-term help for those who desperately need it isn't wrong or bad. Beats what the TeaParty types, Randroids, and libertarians in the United States want to happen, where the poor parts of town will become even more Third Worldish and Dickensian-levels of cruel if the Ron Paul's of the world win out in the end.

The middle course is the best as usual. Far preferable to what the slime on the right or the left want to happen.

[ShepherdsDog]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

We have a socialized military, socialized medicine, socialized education. Not doing too bad.

These are societal constructs. Every society needs them and if you use them as your basis, then by extension, human society...any human society regardless of its economic theory was, is and will be socialist.

[Zipperfish]

eureka eureka:

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Altruism as the basis of a society is ridiculous. Anyone who has observed human nature knows that we operate on the principle of WIIFM. We are hardwired to take care of me and mine, first and foremost....anyone who thinks otherwise well that's where the incredulity comes into play.

Such a cynic!

Altruism is a biological imperative that is equally as important to survival as is self interest. That was Darwin's dilemma with respect to his early theorising. He resolved it. Various species, including humans exhibit altruistic behaviour in sacrificing self for the survival of the group. That does not seem to extend to the larger population, though. Altruism and cooperation are elements without which no society will thrive. Right back as far as hpmp habilis caring behaviour has been observed.

Richard Dawkins pretty much laid that "sacrifice for the group" theory to rest. Cooperation can lead to mutually beneficial outcomes, but survival of the group is not needed to explain this behaviour. See "The Selfish Gene."

[Zipperfish]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

We have a socialized military, socialized medicine, socialized education. Not doing too bad.

These are societal constructs. Every society needs them and if you use them as your basis, then by extension, human society...any human society regardless of its economic theory was, is and will be socialist.

So why the animosity towards socialism then, when you recognize that some aspects of society are necessarily socialist. This realization raises the discussion above the false dichotomy of "socialism / no socialism" and into the productive area of inquiry of where to draw the line on socialism.